"Mad Mahdi" Dagger

Rivkin · 28th March 2005, 01:55 AM

It's hard to be objective in describing the theory you really dislike.

In general, based mostly on linguistics the dominant "caucasian" was that "old" european nations - caucasians, celts and etruskians (with sometimes basques being added to this list) share the common ansectry.

The obvious problem with using lingustics is that common language elements can be just a coincidence, or the result of common influence by a third language, and so on, and so on.

But the theory was and is tremendously popular (mostly due to it's confirmation of "european" nature of caucasians and their "ancient" status).

Concerning khevsurian beliefs, it's more of a historic fact - 300 european knights under the leadership of a french knight (I don't remember the name, but I think his initials were HM) came to Georgia to help in the war against seljuks and arabs (that to that moment was raging for 200+ years). Under their influence, Georgia adopts the crusader symbolics (today georgian flag is a jerusalem cross, symbol of templars) and joins the crusade.
It's unclear where they've settled after the battle at Didgori (where they've played an important role), but everyone who wishes to do so, claims the ancestry from them.

Another references to this fact are caucasian "bees" (crosses) on caucasian kindjals/swords and initials HM, also sometimes appearing on kindjals.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 05:34 AM

Hi Rivkin,
Thank you for explaining that, well done!

Actually I didn't have any problem with any theory, just wanted to be sure I understood correctly.
I have always been very fascinated by the history and weapons of the Caucusus and appreciate the interesting information.
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 28th March 2005, 05:55 AM

A friend of mine who is a linguist dealing with "protolanguages" told me that one of thr greatest mysteres of the European languages is the connection between the Basque and the Georgian; apparently, basque does not relate to anything else!
The Latin letters "HM" mentioned by Rivkin are often seen next to the "running wolf" mark on Solingen blades. Allegedly, these are initials of Henry Montmorancy, one of the French crusaders, whose soldiers went to the Caucasus and brought the "ters maimun" with them.

Yannis · 28th March 2005, 07:57 AM

Very interesting turn in the topic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

A friend of mine who is a linguist dealing with "protolanguages" told me that one of thr greatest mysteres of the European languages is the connection between the Basque and the Georgian; apparently, basque does not relate to anything else!

There is a strange relation between Caucasus and South West Europe. In the ancient world both present day Spain and a big part of present day Georgia were known as “Iberia”. Georgian Iberia was allied to Rome. It became a Byzantine province in the sixth century A.D.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 01:24 PM

Yannis and Ariel,
Outstanding information!!!Thank you so much for adding these facts. I had often wondered what the HM regarded, and I think it is fascinating to discover the connections between Georgia and so much other history. It seems these are the things that one seldom learns in standard history material generally available here in the west.
I really enjoy it when a topic is not necessarily changed but expanded, a complete learning experience! Well done and thank you guys!
All the best,
Jim

Aurangzeb · 28th March 2005, 11:12 PM

Hi all!

My Sudanese dagger's blade is snapped off at the very tip,and the bade is dull,whould it be wise to sharpen it or leave it as is.My personal thought is to leave it as is and not touch it, but it was suggested to me that I should sharpen it.

any advice whould be appreciated.

Rivkin · 29th March 2005, 01:11 AM

Well, sharpening is a phylosophical question - do you see your dagger as a weapon or as a historical memorabilia ?

I think most of the collectors do not sharpen their weapons (I do).

28th March 2005, 11:12 PM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	knife question Hi all! My Sudanese dagger's blade is snapped off at the very tip,and the bade is dull,whould it be wise to sharpen it or leave it as is.My personal thought is to leave it as is and not touch it, but it was suggested to me that I should sharpen it. any advice whould be appreciated.

28th March 2005, 01:55 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It's hard to be objective in describing the theory you really dislike. In general, based mostly on linguistics the dominant "caucasian" was that "old" european nations - caucasians, celts and etruskians (with sometimes basques being added to this list) share the common ansectry. The obvious problem with using lingustics is that common language elements can be just a coincidence, or the result of common influence by a third language, and so on, and so on. But the theory was and is tremendously popular (mostly due to it's confirmation of "european" nature of caucasians and their "ancient" status). Concerning khevsurian beliefs, it's more of a historic fact - 300 european knights under the leadership of a french knight (I don't remember the name, but I think his initials were HM) came to Georgia to help in the war against seljuks and arabs (that to that moment was raging for 200+ years). Under their influence, Georgia adopts the crusader symbolics (today georgian flag is a jerusalem cross, symbol of templars) and joins the crusade. It's unclear where they've settled after the battle at Didgori (where they've played an important role), but everyone who wishes to do so, claims the ancestry from them. Another references to this fact are caucasian "bees" (crosses) on caucasian kindjals/swords and initials HM, also sometimes appearing on kindjals.

28th March 2005, 05:34 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Rivkin, Thank you for explaining that, well done! Actually I didn't have any problem with any theory, just wanted to be sure I understood correctly. I have always been very fascinated by the history and weapons of the Caucusus and appreciate the interesting information. All the best, Jim

28th March 2005, 05:55 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A friend of mine who is a linguist dealing with "protolanguages" told me that one of thr greatest mysteres of the European languages is the connection between the Basque and the Georgian; apparently, basque does not relate to anything else! The Latin letters "HM" mentioned by Rivkin are often seen next to the "running wolf" mark on Solingen blades. Allegedly, these are initials of Henry Montmorancy, one of the French crusaders, whose soldiers went to the Caucasus and brought the "ters maimun" with them.

28th March 2005, 01:24 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Yannis and Ariel, Outstanding information!!!Thank you so much for adding these facts. I had often wondered what the HM regarded, and I think it is fascinating to discover the connections between Georgia and so much other history. It seems these are the things that one seldom learns in standard history material generally available here in the west. I really enjoy it when a topic is not necessarily changed but expanded, a complete learning experience! Well done and thank you guys! All the best, Jim

29th March 2005, 01:11 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, sharpening is a phylosophical question - do you see your dagger as a weapon or as a historical memorabilia ? I think most of the collectors do not sharpen their weapons (I do).