2nd Caucasian Kindjal for comment

Gavin Nugent · 16th June 2008, 12:02 PM

Thanks for popping by David.

True words spoken David, everything in this world has a cost and it is buyer beware, there are however dealers who may not know the whole truth behind an item they have for sale but do stand by their reputation and receive returned goods and offer refunds. I too wouldn't hold any thing said about an item from an auction house as gospel, hence the tenaciousness to draw more information from those who expressed some knowledge in the area. I always trust my own judgement when handling an item and to a degree specialist auctioneers who are honest with their degree of knowledge in certain areas.

It is a shame that so many threads do appear with nothing more than a single link and no more than a quick paragraph that really doesn't have any impact on the thought process. A while later these links are no longer available to view and the whole essence and learning process is lost forever, if in fact there is any learning process at all at times.
A shame that people who claim to be so knowledgable and advanced collectors can really offer up so little substantial information and shy away when the going gets tough and answers are questioned and more detail requested, very ponderous. I personally want my boundries pushed, I don't want to sit insulated and stale, I crave facts.

There are points I have bought up in this thread that I feel would be benificial to all interested in these weapons but those "in the know" don't seem to think so???

Blade profile and shape for one, I did ask about the blades with a recurved double edged tip compared the images shown here, What about the untra violet light to read faint or rubbed inscriptions, the use of coral and the hand of Fatima symbolism on these weapons, I will when given the time add this to Jim's thread on symbolism as I don't think it has been covered off. Also there is the mention of red coral for good luck, the use of material to cover the wooden sheath and hilt inserts, the varying styles of hilt profiles found on these peices, even verses of the Koran that may be found on these pieces.

Obviously these points of interest are of no concern to a few here but these points above and others throughout the postings are many points worth discussing and writing about here, after all that is what this site is about.

regards

Gav

PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all.

Mark · 16th June 2008, 03:23 PM

Though not always necessary in an informal forum such as this, it is always important to be able to lay out facts/evidence in support of any claim. Sometimes the one-line conclusory answer suffices, other times a more detailed basis is needed or requested. The absense of one, or insistance upon one, should not (IMO) reflect negatively on either the opiner.

There have been a number of factual observations made about this piece which have been indicated as showing it to be either recent or antique, but what I think is lacking a bit is the significance of these observations in the context. There are inprecise, you might say sloppy, aspects to the engraving. What does this mean for a kindjal? As someone pointed out, sloppy does not universally equate either with "recent" or "fake." But does it for kindjal? The niello has certain wear patterns - what does this tell us, other than that it is worn? What do the particulars of the blade geometry tell us? Should a 19th C kindjal have well-made, or unfinished rivits? Is there some sine qua non for an 18th C, or 18th C, or 20th C kindjal?

For example, in my own experience, a poorly made blade, even in fancy fittings, says nothing about the age or genuineness of a dha, as it is not uncommon for a genuinely "old" dha to have a rather poorly made blade. The same goes for the craftsmanship of the fittings. They can be a clue, but you have to look beyond to the whole package & context to see whether a poorly made blade of this particular style, with this particular type of fitting, from this region is consistent with the purported age, or not.

Lew · 16th June 2008, 08:03 PM

PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all.[/QUOTE]

Gav

I do not understand why you are asking this question

Why would you ever bring this up in the discussion it has nothing to do with your kindjal unless you get off by trying to purposely ruffle someones feathers?

Lew

Gavin Nugent · 16th June 2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all.

Gav

I do not understand why you are asking this question

Why would you ever bring this up in the discussion it has nothing to do with your kindjal unless you get off by trying to purposely ruffle someones feathers?

Lew[/QUOTE]

I would have explained here Lew but you rude PM, it covered off enough about "we" and your use of the word. It was an inocent question that could have been answered simply specifically or other ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

I think we have gone as far as we can with this thread and it's time to put it to rest.

Gav this will be my last response on this thread.
Regards

Lew

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

There are points I have bought up in this thread that I feel would be benificial to all interested in these weapons but those "in the know" don't seem to think so???

Blade profile and shape for one, I did ask about the blades with a recurved double edged tip compared the images shown here, What about the untra violet light to read faint or rubbed inscriptions, the use of coral and the hand of Fatima symbolism on these weapons, I will when given the time add this to Jim's thread on symbolism as I don't think it has been covered off. Also there is the mention of red coral for good luck, the use of material to cover the wooden sheath and hilt inserts, the varying styles of hilt profiles found on these peices, even verses of the Koran that may be found on these pieces.

Obviously these points of interest are of no concern to a few here but these points above and others throughout the postings are many points worth discussing and writing about here, after all that is what this site is about.

regards

Gav

These questions above I feel are the real issue, lets explore them and others, I know I will post informative content as it comes to hand and I hope others will also take an interest in explaining these things.

regards

Gav

Moderators, for the betterment of all, some are taking things far too personally, maybe some comments should be struck from the postings, maybe the post should be closed and the pursuit for knowledge be shut down

Lew · 16th June 2008, 11:05 PM

Gav

What part of "We" do you not understand? We being the other formites who posted their comments and did not think your kindjal was circa 1860. Btw I do not claim ownership of any group on this forum as you insinuated below

PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all.

Your question is presumptive to begin with and is antagonist at the least. Maybe you need to be more careful when you post your questions as to not to step on other formites toes.
Lew

Gavin Nugent · 17th June 2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

What part of "We" do you not understand?

Lew

Against my better judgement Lew, I will share what I know of the English language as your intentions of not entering into this posting anymore has fallen by the wayside a number of threads ago.
When the word "we" is used the way you describe Lew, it does in fact take ownership of others, it should in fact read "I". It is much like so many who say "how are we today", in this case it should be how are "you" or "how are you all today", when asked that question in such context I couldn't reply for another, especially one who indicates that I should comment on how they are. Would my reply be "WE are well today", I think not, my reply would be "I am well thank you, how are you". I was only confused as to who "we" was, now that you mention who "we" are, I now know you are the spokesman of others who choose not to enter further into an educational fact finding mission about Kindjals with silver fittings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Gav

We being the other formites who posted their comments and did not think your kindjal was circa 1860.

Lew

As you indicated in the abrasive, abusive and threatening PM, you did indicate that you exchange mail with others internally which is what the study is all about, as this is a discussion forum wouldn't that knowledge and comments, study and research be better bought to light objectively in the pages of the forums, for the most here it is blah blah blah and nothing to verify comments. I'd believe it is a Chinese Jian if one can indicate why and because and with a good many unrefuted points of reference.
I think you are missing the whole point, subjectively I would place this piece at 1880-1920 and of a very high standard, All I have heard thus far is that it is rubbish, a fake, poor quality and many other misleading comments from those who claim to be in the know and when I disprove these comments subjectively and with further imagery, still nothing further to enhance the learning process is made any clearer why the new evidence should or shouldn't be taken on board, how is anyone going to learn further if it is all hush hush behind the scenes if it is there at all???

I think Mark's comments below do indicate further as to what I offered across and as to what can be learnt here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Though not always necessary in an informal forum such as this, it is always important to be able to lay out facts/evidence in support of any claim. Sometimes the one-line conclusory answer suffices, other times a more detailed basis is needed or requested. The absense of one, or insistance upon one, should not (IMO) reflect negatively on either the opiner.

There have been a number of factual observations made about this piece which have been indicated as showing it to be either recent or antique, but what I think is lacking a bit is the significance of these observations in the context. There are inprecise, you might say sloppy, aspects to the engraving. What does this mean for a kindjal? As someone pointed out, sloppy does not universally equate either with "recent" or "fake." But does it for kindjal? The niello has certain wear patterns - what does this tell us, other than that it is worn? What do the particulars of the blade geometry tell us? Should a 19th C kindjal have well-made, or unfinished rivits? Is there some sine qua non for an 18th C, or 18th C, or 20th C kindjal?

For example, in my own experience, a poorly made blade, even in fancy fittings, says nothing about the age or genuineness of a dha, as it is not uncommon for a genuinely "old" dha to have a rather poorly made blade. The same goes for the craftsmanship of the fittings. They can be a clue, but you have to look beyond to the whole package & context to see whether a poorly made blade of this particular style, with this particular type of fitting, from this region is consistent with the purported age, or not.

regards

Gav

Lew · 17th June 2008, 11:15 AM

Gav

I do not need a lesson in the english language

I am quite sure that everybody but you understood what I had meant by We. You have posted comments such as the silence is deafening comment which to some was a deliberate sarcastic and somewhat snide remark. My PM was not threatening to say the least I was just stating how I felt and it being a Private Message something we(yes I am speaking for the majority) here at the forum do not share or discuss on the public threads and that is why they are called Private.

I think you are missing the whole point, subjectively I would place this piece at 1880-1920 and of a very high standard, All I have heard thus far is that it is rubbish, a fake, poor quality and many other misleading comments from those who claim to be in the know and when I disprove these comments subjectively and with further imagery

Gav

Your imagery proves nothing anyone with a moderate level of skill and the right tools can produce the same work on your kindjal.

Lew

kronckew · 17th June 2008, 02:23 PM

We are not amused.

(the royal 'we').

we suggest this thread has gone as far as it needs to.
we are nicer people than where this is heading.

Andrew · 17th June 2008, 02:31 PM

Please take it off-board if you want to continue this, gentlemen.

I might also suggest you explore the "ignore" function of the forum's software.

Thread closed.

16th June 2008, 12:02 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Wise words David Thanks for popping by David. True words spoken David, everything in this world has a cost and it is buyer beware, there are however dealers who may not know the whole truth behind an item they have for sale but do stand by their reputation and receive returned goods and offer refunds. I too wouldn't hold any thing said about an item from an auction house as gospel, hence the tenaciousness to draw more information from those who expressed some knowledge in the area. I always trust my own judgement when handling an item and to a degree specialist auctioneers who are honest with their degree of knowledge in certain areas. It is a shame that so many threads do appear with nothing more than a single link and no more than a quick paragraph that really doesn't have any impact on the thought process. A while later these links are no longer available to view and the whole essence and learning process is lost forever, if in fact there is any learning process at all at times. A shame that people who claim to be so knowledgable and advanced collectors can really offer up so little substantial information and shy away when the going gets tough and answers are questioned and more detail requested, very ponderous. I personally want my boundries pushed, I don't want to sit insulated and stale, I crave facts. There are points I have bought up in this thread that I feel would be benificial to all interested in these weapons but those "in the know" don't seem to think so??? Blade profile and shape for one, I did ask about the blades with a recurved double edged tip compared the images shown here, What about the untra violet light to read faint or rubbed inscriptions, the use of coral and the hand of Fatima symbolism on these weapons, I will when given the time add this to Jim's thread on symbolism as I don't think it has been covered off. Also there is the mention of red coral for good luck, the use of material to cover the wooden sheath and hilt inserts, the varying styles of hilt profiles found on these peices, even verses of the Koran that may be found on these pieces. Obviously these points of interest are of no concern to a few here but these points above and others throughout the postings are many points worth discussing and writing about here, after all that is what this site is about. regards Gav PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all. Last edited by freebooter; 16th June 2008 at 12:24 PM.

16th June 2008, 11:05 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav What part of "We" do you not understand? We being the other formites who posted their comments and did not think your kindjal was circa 1860. Btw I do not claim ownership of any group on this forum as you insinuated below PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all. Your question is presumptive to begin with and is antagonist at the least. Maybe you need to be more careful when you post your questions as to not to step on other formites toes. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 17th June 2008 at 04:25 AM.

17th June 2008, 11:15 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gav I do not need a lesson in the english language I am quite sure that everybody but you understood what I had meant by We. You have posted comments such as the silence is deafening comment which to some was a deliberate sarcastic and somewhat snide remark. My PM was not threatening to say the least I was just stating how I felt and it being a Private Message something we(yes I am speaking for the majority) here at the forum do not share or discuss on the public threads and that is why they are called Private. I think you are missing the whole point, subjectively I would place this piece at 1880-1920 and of a very high standard, All I have heard thus far is that it is rubbish, a fake, poor quality and many other misleading comments from those who claim to be in the know and when I disprove these comments subjectively and with further imagery Gav Your imagery proves nothing anyone with a moderate level of skill and the right tools can produce the same work on your kindjal. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 17th June 2008 at 12:40 PM.

16th June 2008, 03:23 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Though not always necessary in an informal forum such as this, it is always important to be able to lay out facts/evidence in support of any claim. Sometimes the one-line conclusory answer suffices, other times a more detailed basis is needed or requested. The absense of one, or insistance upon one, should not (IMO) reflect negatively on either the opiner. There have been a number of factual observations made about this piece which have been indicated as showing it to be either recent or antique, but what I think is lacking a bit is the significance of these observations in the context. There are inprecise, you might say sloppy, aspects to the engraving. What does this mean for a kindjal? As someone pointed out, sloppy does not universally equate either with "recent" or "fake." But does it for kindjal? The niello has certain wear patterns - what does this tell us, other than that it is worn? What do the particulars of the blade geometry tell us? Should a 19th C kindjal have well-made, or unfinished rivits? Is there some sine qua non for an 18th C, or 18th C, or 20th C kindjal? For example, in my own experience, a poorly made blade, even in fancy fittings, says nothing about the age or genuineness of a dha, as it is not uncommon for a genuinely "old" dha to have a rather poorly made blade. The same goes for the craftsmanship of the fittings. They can be a clue, but you have to look beyond to the whole package & context to see whether a poorly made blade of this particular style, with this particular type of fitting, from this region is consistent with the purported age, or not.

16th June 2008, 08:03 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	PS. Lew, on a number of occasions recently you have used the word "we" as in the tense of taking ownership of a group, are you are representing a group of people who I do not know of, I am just a little lost with "we", that's all.[/QUOTE] Gav I do not understand why you are asking this question Why would you ever bring this up in the discussion it has nothing to do with your kindjal unless you get off by trying to purposely ruffle someones feathers? Lew

17th June 2008, 02:23 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	We are not amused. (the royal 'we'). we suggest this thread has gone as far as it needs to. we are nicer people than where this is heading.

17th June 2008, 02:31 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Please take it off-board if you want to continue this, gentlemen. I might also suggest you explore the "ignore" function of the forum's software. Thread closed.