Keris Holders

A. G. Maisey · 22nd May 2008, 02:42 AM

The Demon Frog.

Representing?

Your guess is as good as mine.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd May 2008, 02:54 AM

Twalen and Mwerdah.

David · 22nd May 2008, 02:19 PM

Hi Cecas, welcome to the forum. You thesis sounds very interesting. I hope that once it is finished you will be able to prvide a link where we can all read it.

I have 5 of these Bali style keris holders. Three of them are very new, but nicely carved little bald men with beautific smiles on their face (buddha?) that are very similar except for their body positions. Probably by the same artist or "family" of artists. I also have a Hanuman that might be from the 70s or 80s (hard to tell age on these) and an unidentifiedcrouching fellow who i quite like, probably about the same age. When i get a chance i will see if i can photograph them.
I also display with a few different ploncons and blawongs.
BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up.

cecas24 · 22nd May 2008, 02:55 PM

David, In response to,
BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up.

Completely understood! For those worried about your privacy, I still maintain that you do not have to give your name- just a location(and not a specific address- if you want to just throw out a state that is cool with me), number, and types of holders you own. Of course if you do not want to post it within a thread, (which is truly understandable-there are a bunch of crazies out in the world) please feel free to send it to me directly,
you can reach me at cecas24@aol.com or garfield08@juno.com.

I would love any images you have of your holders David, especially Hanuman. Comparing the various ones I have seen is very helpful in relation to artistic style.
Thanks so much!

Kiai Carita · 22nd May 2008, 03:56 PM

And not all demons are Rahwana.

I have been meaning to say this since reading the togogan thread a few weeks back. Not all apes are Hanuman, and in Bali, Sugriwa and Subali (both red and kings), as well as Anila (blue) are also very popular characters from the Ramayana who are often seen popping up in folk art.

Hanuman should be white and have a) the kuku pancanaka - large thumb nail (like a kerambit) and b) the poleng chequered sarong.

Demons / raksasa are in my observations, often Kumbakarna, rather than Rahwana. Kumbakarna is Rahwana's patriotic brother and a favorit character amongst the kesatria caste.

Warm regards,
Bram

Rick · 22nd May 2008, 05:19 PM

Who is this fellow ?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd May 2008, 11:17 PM

Agreed Bram.

Agreed 125%.

And what makes it even more confusing is that the people who produce these carvings often, very, very often will produce a figure that is a mixture of characteristics, or that is clearly a particular character, but incorrectly represented in accordance with defined characteristics of the character.

Another thing that the carvers do is to use various features or characteristics from traditional characters, and weave these features and characteristics into something new. If this "something new" is a good seller, it becomes copied by other carvers, and before long you've got something that everybody, including the carvers themselves, think is traditional, but really is not.

Then there are the dictates of material:- the carver will have a form in his mind, and he will alter that form to fit the material he has to work with.

Many years ago a man who was an authority on South East Asian and primitive art, and whose opinion was respected across the world, commented to me that often the only person who knew what a particular figure was supposed to represent was the carver, or perhaps in some cases, the person who placed the order with the carver. This man's comments were not specific to Bali, but were addressed as a generality to S.E. Asian art, including the areas of primitive art. I am very inclined to agree with this opinion.

In the case of Bali, since probably about the 1920's, there has been so much input from outside sources to Balinese artistic pursuits, that it is sometimes a little bit difficult to identify those things that could be considered to be Bali asli, and those things that are a product of Balinese thought, technique, and skill that have absorbed influences from outside of Bali. This is not to say that such things are not truly Balinese:- if we look at the span of Balinese life and art, we find that throughout history the Balinese people have accepted and incorporated into their society, and into their culture, ideas from outside Bali. This is evidence of the vibrant and robust nature of Balinese art, that something can be taken from a different source, and incorporated into the local vocabulary----but it does sometimes make it a wee bit difficult to identify exactly what the artist was intent on portraying.

If we were to consider only those blossoms of Balinese art which bloomed prior to, say, 1920 , we could very probably determine with some degree of certainty what character a particular figure was intended to represent, however, since probably 99.9% of all Balinese carved figures that we encounter have been produced since 1920, we really would be a little self indulgent if we thought that our opinions could be considered to be anything other than merely opinions.

cecas24 · 22nd May 2008, 02:37 PM

Ahh yes, to broad a question...

I will provide a few specific questions for holders in general to start.

#1) I was told by a collector in California that Balinese Kris holders always have square bottoms-Does anyone know this to be -False?

#2) For anyone who has traveled to Bali, have you observed specific deities used only for holders ? (not those produced for tourists, but rather traditional holders)

#3) Does anyone on this site own a holder dating further back than 1920? (Could I get a peek at it?)

#4) Last but not least, the question still remains, aside from the, Berman Museum, the Met, & Farrow Fine Art Gallery, does anyone know of a US Museum or Gallery that has holders in its collection?

In response to "The Demon Frog", I have discovered in many cases the frog is a substitute for the tuber of the lotus flower. Then when a kris is placed in the stand, the shaft is to represent the lotus stalk. From there I have read that the meaning is purely symbolic with references to the male and female principles, magically united and thus forming the origin of all creation.
A Holder very similar to this is found in the Gerog Tillman Collection at the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam.
I also found this interesting little number on ebay-

ganjawulung · 19th June 2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cecas24

...#2) For anyone who has traveled to Bali, have you observed specific deities used only for holders ? (not those produced for tourists, but rather traditional holders)

#3) Does anyone on this site own a holder dating further back than 1920? (Could I get a peek at it?)

I am not sure whether this keris holder was dating further back than 1920 or not. This figure is probably Anggada -- ape-human in Ramayana story, the only son of Resi Subali and Dewi Tara -- and not the figure of Anoman...

About Anggada. When Anggada was still infant, his father Resi Subali was dead by the arrow of Ramawijaya -- during Subali and his brother Sugriwa were quarelling to get Dewi Tara (mother of Anggada). Anggada then grew up with Sugriwa, who later married to Dewi Tara.

This (ape-human) quarrels between two brothers (Subali vs Sugriwa) in Ramayana story, were also a "power struggle" to seize the reign in Guakiskenda -- Kingdom of the apes...

A. G. Maisey · 19th June 2008, 08:48 AM

Willem, over the years I have had many Bali keris holders, and most of these had quite small holes to accept the keris. I used to have the same opinion that you hold, that is, that these holders were made for foreign consumption. However during the last perhaps 5 years I have obtained six Bali keris holders that were definitely old and that were obtained in circumstances that were not conducive to the theory of manufacture for foreign consumption.

These holders also had small holes, in fact the oldest holder, age judged on known history and physical appearance, had a hole that would not have accepted any keris.

I strongly suspect that most Bali keris holders have always been made with a small hole, the final size being left to the buyer to carve out, according to his own requirements.

If this is so, it would be in line with many Balinese objects made for local consumption, where the final finishing is left to the buyer, and not done by the specialist craftsman.

ganjawulung · 20th June 2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I am not sure whether this keris holder was dating further back than 1920 or not. This figure is probably Anggada -- ape-human in Ramayana story, the only son of Resi Subali and Dewi Tara -- and not the figure of Anoman...

Dear Cecas,

Why not Anoman? Based on Ramayana story (wayang performance is still living in villages in Central and East Jawa Indonesia until nowadays), Anoman is an ape-human which has all white fur. While Anggada, reddish fur. And the characteristic differrence you may look at the "nail". Anoman -- like Bima too -- has a very specific "weapon-nail" named "kuku pancanaka". Only Anoman and Bima (in Jawa also called as Werkudara, or Bimasena) which have such "kuku pancanaka" in Wayang. (Pls regard the graphic picture below, Anoman with long-pointed nail and the other is Anggada)

Anoman is the son of Bathara Guru (the highest god in wayang) and Dewi Anjani... Actually Dewi Anjani is a goddess. But transformed in ape-form, when Bathara Guru fell in love with her. After bearing Anoman, the ape-woman Anjani transformed again as a goddess...

I hope this humble information won't disturb you...

asomotif · 20th June 2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

I strongly suspect that most Bali keris holders have always been made with a small hole, the final size being left to the buyer to carve out, according to his own requirements.

thanks again for sharing your extensive knowledge and experience !
sounds so logical.

asomotif · 26th June 2008, 12:47 PM

I found this little lady.
approx 35 cms high but capable of carrying a big balinese if needed.

Any suggestions on who she is ?

22nd May 2008, 03:56 PM	#5
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Not all apes are Hanuman And not all demons are Rahwana. I have been meaning to say this since reading the togogan thread a few weeks back. Not all apes are Hanuman, and in Bali, Sugriwa and Subali (both red and kings), as well as Anila (blue) are also very popular characters from the Ramayana who are often seen popping up in folk art. Hanuman should be white and have a) the kuku pancanaka - large thumb nail (like a kerambit) and b) the poleng chequered sarong. Demons / raksasa are in my observations, often Kumbakarna, rather than Rahwana. Kumbakarna is Rahwana's patriotic brother and a favorit character amongst the kesatria caste. Warm regards, Bram

22nd May 2008, 05:19 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Who is this fellow ? Attached Images

26th June 2008, 12:47 PM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	lady / danser / who is she ? I found this little lady. approx 35 cms high but capable of carrying a big balinese if needed. Any suggestions on who she is ? Attached Images

22nd May 2008, 02:42 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The Demon Frog. Representing? Your guess is as good as mine. Attached Images

22nd May 2008, 02:54 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Twalen and Mwerdah. Attached Images

22nd May 2008, 02:19 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Hi Cecas, welcome to the forum. You thesis sounds very interesting. I hope that once it is finished you will be able to prvide a link where we can all read it. I have 5 of these Bali style keris holders. Three of them are very new, but nicely carved little bald men with beautific smiles on their face (buddha?) that are very similar except for their body positions. Probably by the same artist or "family" of artists. I also have a Hanuman that might be from the 70s or 80s (hard to tell age on these) and an unidentifiedcrouching fellow who i quite like, probably about the same age. When i get a chance i will see if i can photograph them. I also display with a few different ploncons and blawongs. BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up.

22nd May 2008, 02:55 PM	#4
cecas24 Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 6	David, In response to, BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up. Completely understood! For those worried about your privacy, I still maintain that you do not have to give your name- just a location(and not a specific address- if you want to just throw out a state that is cool with me), number, and types of holders you own. Of course if you do not want to post it within a thread, (which is truly understandable-there are a bunch of crazies out in the world) please feel free to send it to me directly, you can reach me at cecas24@aol.com or garfield08@juno.com. I would love any images you have of your holders David, especially Hanuman. Comparing the various ones I have seen is very helpful in relation to artistic style. Thanks so much!

22nd May 2008, 11:17 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Agreed Bram. Agreed 125%. And what makes it even more confusing is that the people who produce these carvings often, very, very often will produce a figure that is a mixture of characteristics, or that is clearly a particular character, but incorrectly represented in accordance with defined characteristics of the character. Another thing that the carvers do is to use various features or characteristics from traditional characters, and weave these features and characteristics into something new. If this "something new" is a good seller, it becomes copied by other carvers, and before long you've got something that everybody, including the carvers themselves, think is traditional, but really is not. Then there are the dictates of material:- the carver will have a form in his mind, and he will alter that form to fit the material he has to work with. Many years ago a man who was an authority on South East Asian and primitive art, and whose opinion was respected across the world, commented to me that often the only person who knew what a particular figure was supposed to represent was the carver, or perhaps in some cases, the person who placed the order with the carver. This man's comments were not specific to Bali, but were addressed as a generality to S.E. Asian art, including the areas of primitive art. I am very inclined to agree with this opinion. In the case of Bali, since probably about the 1920's, there has been so much input from outside sources to Balinese artistic pursuits, that it is sometimes a little bit difficult to identify those things that could be considered to be Bali asli, and those things that are a product of Balinese thought, technique, and skill that have absorbed influences from outside of Bali. This is not to say that such things are not truly Balinese:- if we look at the span of Balinese life and art, we find that throughout history the Balinese people have accepted and incorporated into their society, and into their culture, ideas from outside Bali. This is evidence of the vibrant and robust nature of Balinese art, that something can be taken from a different source, and incorporated into the local vocabulary----but it does sometimes make it a wee bit difficult to identify exactly what the artist was intent on portraying. If we were to consider only those blossoms of Balinese art which bloomed prior to, say, 1920 , we could very probably determine with some degree of certainty what character a particular figure was intended to represent, however, since probably 99.9% of all Balinese carved figures that we encounter have been produced since 1920, we really would be a little self indulgent if we thought that our opinions could be considered to be anything other than merely opinions.

22nd May 2008, 02:37 PM	#8
cecas24 Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 6	Ahh yes, to broad a question... I will provide a few specific questions for holders in general to start. #1) I was told by a collector in California that Balinese Kris holders always have square bottoms-Does anyone know this to be -False? #2) For anyone who has traveled to Bali, have you observed specific deities used only for holders ? (not those produced for tourists, but rather traditional holders) #3) Does anyone on this site own a holder dating further back than 1920? (Could I get a peek at it?) #4) Last but not least, the question still remains, aside from the, Berman Museum, the Met, & Farrow Fine Art Gallery, does anyone know of a US Museum or Gallery that has holders in its collection? In response to "The Demon Frog", I have discovered in many cases the frog is a substitute for the tuber of the lotus flower. Then when a kris is placed in the stand, the shaft is to represent the lotus stalk. From there I have read that the meaning is purely symbolic with references to the male and female principles, magically united and thus forming the origin of all creation. A Holder very similar to this is found in the Gerog Tillman Collection at the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam. I also found this interesting little number on ebay-

19th June 2008, 08:48 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Willem, over the years I have had many Bali keris holders, and most of these had quite small holes to accept the keris. I used to have the same opinion that you hold, that is, that these holders were made for foreign consumption. However during the last perhaps 5 years I have obtained six Bali keris holders that were definitely old and that were obtained in circumstances that were not conducive to the theory of manufacture for foreign consumption. These holders also had small holes, in fact the oldest holder, age judged on known history and physical appearance, had a hole that would not have accepted any keris. I strongly suspect that most Bali keris holders have always been made with a small hole, the final size being left to the buyer to carve out, according to his own requirements. If this is so, it would be in line with many Balinese objects made for local consumption, where the final finishing is left to the buyer, and not done by the specialist craftsman.