Caucasian Kindjal for comment

RSWORD · 18th May 2008, 10:42 PM

I have said this many times but you have to pay tuition to edge weapon collecting U. Tuition is paid in many fashions. First is through educating yourself through interaction with other collectors, reading as much reference material as you possibly can, and handling as many genuine and even fake items as possible. You don't earn a masters your first year of university. It takes time. We have all made purchases that we were disappointed with. But when you are seeking opinions from the fraternity never shoot the messenger. You gotta have thick skin when you are paying your tuition. Pay attention and you will not be disappointed as often. But when you are disappointed, learn from it. But what each of us can share with you is that it takes many years to develop an eye that just can't be explained in the books. Cheers Mate!

Gavin Nugent · 19th May 2008, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I have said this many times but you have to pay tuition to edge weapon collecting U. Tuition is paid in many fashions. First is through educating yourself through interaction with other collectors, reading as much reference material as you possibly can, and handling as many genuine and even fake items as possible. You don't earn a masters your first year of university. It takes time. We have all made purchases that we were disappointed with. But when you are seeking opinions from the fraternity never shoot the messenger. You gotta have thick skin when you are paying your tuition. Pay attention and you will not be disappointed as often. But when you are disappointed, learn from it. But what each of us can share with you is that it takes many years to develop an eye that just can't be explained in the books. Cheers Mate!

Too true Rick, I could have been a little more thick skinned as you say.
You are right too about tuition, and really in the end, it is only taking an in interest that really helps anyone learn and understand.

What has been said is all good, and years of manufacture have been pointed out as late 20th century but I ask all "Why can't it be a Kindjal made of Nickel Silver (Which it is) made in 1880", was the right of making Kindjals only reserved for those of exception metal working skills in the late 1800's? My inquisitive nature will always want to know why why why and see proof, otherwise it is speculation.

regards

Gav

fernando · 19th May 2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

... "Why can't it be a Kindjal made of Nickel Silver (Which it is) made in 1880" ...

Indeed so Gav

.
Look for item # dag_0065 in this link.
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Daggers.html
A piece also with the mountings in German ( nickel) silver, with a decoration somehow resembling yours ... however a bit more well finished, i would say ?
Mind you, the earlier date atributed to it could be a bit optimistic, though

Fernando

Gavin Nugent · 19th May 2008, 01:55 AM

Outstanding Fernando ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Indeed so Gav

.
Look for item # dag_0065 in this link.
http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/Daggers.html
A piece also with the mountings in German ( nickel) silver, with a decoration somehow resembling yours ... however a bit more well finished, i would say ?
Mind you, the earlier date atributed to it could be a bit optimistic, though

Fernando

After reading Ariel's views of it being a one off, it re-enforced my views on it's nature and origins as being from someone near the turn on the 19/20th century, taking enough interest in their traditions and culture to create this piece the best they knew how, so that they own their own traditionally made Kindjal or as the link indicates, maybe to offer a friend or assosiate, much like goverments today and of old offer traditional gifts wether they be in the high or low end of the market.
I did notice too, even the examples offered up by Jeff from the oriental arms website, although of better quality still showed a lack of perfect symmetry in the embellishments. I am guessing unless really closely viewed you wouldn't notice them at first glance as the camera did not zoom as close as I did to show detail.
Nice find, I will continue to look for other examples too.

regards

Gav

ariel · 19th May 2008, 02:41 AM

Gav,
One can make a lot of arguments and invent a lot of reasons why this kindjal should still be viewed as representing some valuable offshot of a venerable tradition.
I suspect you are correct in ID-ing this blade as older and better than average quality. Still, the entire gestalt is of a late ( very late) manufacture when the real craftsmanship was no longer in use. There are professional masters in the Caucasus even now, and they produce expensive, time consuming and elaborate items. One can see these examples even in books and museum catalogs. Most of them are in poor taste, employ simpler techniques and compensate ( or try to) for the lack of real expertise by modern forms and features. This one does not have even that.
You may like it, and please feel free to enjoy it. Had you said that it was bought just because of personal interest or some irresistible urge, I would have understood. After all, we all bought pretty crummy things just because of emotional motives.
What I am objecting to is the attempt to present it as a legitimate example of an authentic antique and real tradition. It is not. I would not have bought it. But that would be just my personal decision.

Gavin Nugent · 19th May 2008, 04:21 AM

Hi Ariel,
I totally understand what it is you are conveying, though I make no claims as to value of anything as that only comes into play if one wants to sell and there is another who wants what you have.

I do however think it worthy of exhaustive research on my part and I hope all here can offer up more for me to A/ Get a better understanding of these attractive knives and B/ get a better understanding of this piece through thorough examination of all parts and construction and materials used ie; what types of wood would be found under the handles and in the sheaths, I am sure there are particular species that would be common to the region or origin, what type of methods and material is used to keep all this wood silver and blade together? Mayhap little things like this will help me dismiss any ideas about it being 1880-1920.

I know Chris Evans has offered up many llinks to the craft of making Navaja, is there anything similar that can be read about the Kindjal?

Ariel, could you explain the different styles found under this umbrella of knife in Caucasian origin as to give me and others a better understanding of design and what that design represents as far as practical weapons go ie, sizes, the plain horn hilts, the horn one side ivory the other, with plain scabbards or with silver fittings to the leather scabbards and other variations like the full silver with neillo and filagree, what are functional weapons and what are for dress only or what are both.

What does this style of blade and fullering indicate at first glance Ariel? Any age factors to the blade gained from the photos at hand?

regards

Gav

Rick · 19th May 2008, 02:50 PM

Hi Gav, have you been through the archives yet ?
A search for 'kindjal' brings up two pages of threads .

19th May 2008, 04:21 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Ariel Hi Ariel, I totally understand what it is you are conveying, though I make no claims as to value of anything as that only comes into play if one wants to sell and there is another who wants what you have. I do however think it worthy of exhaustive research on my part and I hope all here can offer up more for me to A/ Get a better understanding of these attractive knives and B/ get a better understanding of this piece through thorough examination of all parts and construction and materials used ie; what types of wood would be found under the handles and in the sheaths, I am sure there are particular species that would be common to the region or origin, what type of methods and material is used to keep all this wood silver and blade together? Mayhap little things like this will help me dismiss any ideas about it being 1880-1920. I know Chris Evans has offered up many llinks to the craft of making Navaja, is there anything similar that can be read about the Kindjal? Ariel, could you explain the different styles found under this umbrella of knife in Caucasian origin as to give me and others a better understanding of design and what that design represents as far as practical weapons go ie, sizes, the plain horn hilts, the horn one side ivory the other, with plain scabbards or with silver fittings to the leather scabbards and other variations like the full silver with neillo and filagree, what are functional weapons and what are for dress only or what are both. What does this style of blade and fullering indicate at first glance Ariel? Any age factors to the blade gained from the photos at hand? regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 19th May 2008 at 04:48 AM.

18th May 2008, 10:42 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I have said this many times but you have to pay tuition to edge weapon collecting U. Tuition is paid in many fashions. First is through educating yourself through interaction with other collectors, reading as much reference material as you possibly can, and handling as many genuine and even fake items as possible. You don't earn a masters your first year of university. It takes time. We have all made purchases that we were disappointed with. But when you are seeking opinions from the fraternity never shoot the messenger. You gotta have thick skin when you are paying your tuition. Pay attention and you will not be disappointed as often. But when you are disappointed, learn from it. But what each of us can share with you is that it takes many years to develop an eye that just can't be explained in the books. Cheers Mate!

19th May 2008, 02:41 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gav, One can make a lot of arguments and invent a lot of reasons why this kindjal should still be viewed as representing some valuable offshot of a venerable tradition. I suspect you are correct in ID-ing this blade as older and better than average quality. Still, the entire gestalt is of a late ( very late) manufacture when the real craftsmanship was no longer in use. There are professional masters in the Caucasus even now, and they produce expensive, time consuming and elaborate items. One can see these examples even in books and museum catalogs. Most of them are in poor taste, employ simpler techniques and compensate ( or try to) for the lack of real expertise by modern forms and features. This one does not have even that. You may like it, and please feel free to enjoy it. Had you said that it was bought just because of personal interest or some irresistible urge, I would have understood. After all, we all bought pretty crummy things just because of emotional motives. What I am objecting to is the attempt to present it as a legitimate example of an authentic antique and real tradition. It is not. I would not have bought it. But that would be just my personal decision.

19th May 2008, 02:50 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Gav, have you been through the archives yet ? A search for 'kindjal' brings up two pages of threads .