Caucasian Kindjal for comment

Gavin Nugent · 16th May 2008, 08:58 AM

As I am delving further into the unknown for me, upon further examination the exterior metal in not actually silver...again I think...it appears to be some sort of white base metal? Can anyone shed any light on the construction of these knives please?

thanks

Gav

fernando · 18th May 2008, 12:48 AM

White(ned) brass or German silver ?

Does the totally plain back side reveal this is a modern replica

?
Let's see what the experts say about it.
Fernando

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 04:26 AM

Hi Fernando,

I too want to here what the experts have to say about this piece. The piece as a whole has some beautiful age to it and some gorgeous old world craftsmanship to it too. The blade under close viewing has some lovely forgings laminations and is razor sharp after a couple of swipes along a sharpening steel.

The zig zag borders found around the "floral" scrolling and chasing shows remnants or a red substance in places too

Anyone here have any more exacting ideas, I believe it to be somewhere between 1850 and 1900.

regards

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 05:02 AM

Here are some more photos of the craftsmanship.

regards

Gav

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 07:01 AM

Gav,
I apologize in advance for disagreeing with your use of the word, and I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your kindjal which looks much better than most I’ve seen, but I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order:
Silver/niello kindjals, which display varying degrees of craftsmanship, but definitely some care in their manufacture:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1728
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2377
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1150

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2008, 07:23 AM

No need for apologies Jeff.

They certainly are great examples of Kindjals shown in Oriental Arms.

What would your experinece say about this piece though? Photographic comparisons are good and well, but alas, what can you tell me about this piece and of it's particular style and construction?

If it is not craftsmanship, what is it???

regards

Gav

Jeff Pringle · 18th May 2008, 08:39 AM

Well, it is as if they still had the workshop set up, the materials and tools at hand, and a basic knowledge of the techniques involved, but some how the desire or ability to do the work well had left the building. Note the choppy feel of the engraving, the uneven, ‘hacked-in’ look to it and the niello, miscuts and poor stops and starts everywhere; the lack of definition between the foreground and background; uneven depth of the background and lack of care in background texture – it is as if the master of the shop had died unexpectedly and a first or second year apprentice was left in charge, but he had a drinking problem and a hot date set up that evening so he was really just not paying attention…or maybe it is just the last gasp of a dying tradition, when even those who had devoted their lives to it had finally realized the ultimate futility of hand work in the machine age?

16th May 2008, 08:58 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	material update As I am delving further into the unknown for me, upon further examination the exterior metal in not actually silver...again I think...it appears to be some sort of white base metal? Can anyone shed any light on the construction of these knives please? thanks Gav

18th May 2008, 12:48 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	White(ned) brass or German silver ? Does the totally plain back side reveal this is a modern replica ? Let's see what the experts say about it. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 18th May 2008 at 11:22 AM.

18th May 2008, 04:26 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I too want to see what the experts say. Hi Fernando, I too want to here what the experts have to say about this piece. The piece as a whole has some beautiful age to it and some gorgeous old world craftsmanship to it too. The blade under close viewing has some lovely forgings laminations and is razor sharp after a couple of swipes along a sharpening steel. The zig zag borders found around the "floral" scrolling and chasing shows remnants or a red substance in places too Anyone here have any more exacting ideas, I believe it to be somewhere between 1850 and 1900. regards Gav

18th May 2008, 05:02 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	some more photos. Here are some more photos of the craftsmanship. regards Gav Attached Images

18th May 2008, 07:01 AM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Gav, I apologize in advance for disagreeing with your use of the word, and I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your kindjal which looks much better than most I’ve seen, but I’m afraid you are overly generous in calling that ‘craftsmanship,’ especially of the old world variety; have a look at the links below and see if you don’t agree that a slight change in the final consonant might be in order: Silver/niello kindjals, which display varying degrees of craftsmanship, but definitely some care in their manufacture: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1728 http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2377 http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1150 Last edited by Jeff Pringle; 18th May 2008 at 08:11 AM.

18th May 2008, 07:23 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Jeff. No need for apologies Jeff. They certainly are great examples of Kindjals shown in Oriental Arms. What would your experinece say about this piece though? Photographic comparisons are good and well, but alas, what can you tell me about this piece and of it's particular style and construction? If it is not craftsmanship, what is it??? regards Gav

18th May 2008, 08:39 AM	#7
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Well, it is as if they still had the workshop set up, the materials and tools at hand, and a basic knowledge of the techniques involved, but some how the desire or ability to do the work well had left the building. Note the choppy feel of the engraving, the uneven, ‘hacked-in’ look to it and the niello, miscuts and poor stops and starts everywhere; the lack of definition between the foreground and background; uneven depth of the background and lack of care in background texture – it is as if the master of the shop had died unexpectedly and a first or second year apprentice was left in charge, but he had a drinking problem and a hot date set up that evening so he was really just not paying attention…or maybe it is just the last gasp of a dying tradition, when even those who had devoted their lives to it had finally realized the ultimate futility of hand work in the machine age?