It certainly is very old ... but what is it ?

fernando · 14th May 2008, 12:56 AM

Thanks a lot Mark,
I will surely follow your track on Spanish colonial stuff, as i will be much obliged you come back with any further material.
The picture in the link is a start ... though my example looks a bit different ... cruder ... and older ?
Could you at any time post (me) pictures of those cutlasses with the mentioned criss cross and star markings ?
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt
Thanks again
Fernando

M ELEY · 22nd May 2008, 05:16 PM

Hello Fernando,
Sorry to take awhile getting back to this thread. I am extremely computer-challenged when it comes to posting pics. RSword/Rick has helped me in the past, but alas, he has moved away

Jim McDougal has personally held the cutlass in question, which he more positively identified as Brazilian and can attest to the striated lines and exact star markings on these Spanish pieces. I could try and photo them and snail-mail you a copy (if I'm lucky enough to get details out of photos) or a rubbing/tracing. Jim, do you happen to have any pics of espada with these star and line work markings??

M ELEY · 24th May 2008, 05:07 AM

OK, FINALLY found one of these. Well, Jim McDougal was right on again about these cutlass being Brazilian...this is a nice one! Anyway, I digress...
Check out this link-
www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/60.html#
From here, look under "more Views" and select View 3.
Note the criss-cross patterning and star-like marking with dots.

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 05:37 PM

Hi Mark,
I just noted the thread, and just wanted to thank you for the kind words. I was delighted when I found the Brazilian attribution which I found in another source. It was a relief for me as well to finally find the answer to these mysterious swords after all of our pondering on them !

Besides that it opened a new dimension to our study on Spanish colonial weapons.
Nice work at noting the connection on Fernando's most interesting (as always!) acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 24th May 2008, 06:15 PM

Hi,
Interestingly Brazil's historical connections with Portugal , might explain why a Brazillian piece ended up there .....or ...if not from Brazil, could indicate that, indeed, this is very old and shows the influences that pre-date the materialised on Brazillian 'pieces'.

However, as already stated 'lined designs used as decoration are found in many cultures, countries and 'time periods' and may be difficult to ID.

Fernando, as I said before I have a doubt this is African but, historically Portugal and Brazil were involved in the 'slave trade' and it is quite possible that your item was influenced or made by an African culture.

My main 'doubt' that this is African is the fact that the 'point' is offset from the socket. All African ones I have seen have the 'point' centrally placed.

A Mystery

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 06:48 PM

As a very wise arms writer once told me, "..weapons do not know geographic boundaries".
While it may be difficult to assign a geographic attribution to this piece, the influences noted profoundly stand, and the slave trade definitely carried these far and wide via the vast routes that commerce followed.

A mystery indeed David, and for all of us weapons Indiana Joneses ....the games afoot!!! (Holmes

fernando · 25th May 2008, 06:43 PM

Thank you Mark, both for the link and for keeping to your promise.
Thank you Indiana, i mean Jim

. Absolutely right; weapons do not know geographic boundaries ... pitty they know price boundaries

Thank you David. If i well understand you, i don't think the point was originaly off centered; this must have happened when somebody decided that this object would make a good chisel

... it seems as its hammering caused a little crack in the socket which resulted in its bending.
About the provenance, i must confess that, at this stage, i have no more certainties than when i started querying on this piece, despite some respectfull opinnions posted by you Gents. However my inclination goes to both Mark's and this local guy's opinnion that it is a sort of lance or pike head. Following that reasoning, i tend to think this is not African or Afro influenced, but of (very old) European trace. Putting Africa out of question and, considering it has been picked somewhere in the interior, it would then be Portuguese or, in second place, Spanish rather than from further European countries.
However naturaly i can only agree that, till some stronger evidence shows up, the game's afoot.

24th May 2008, 05:07 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,145	OK, FINALLY found one of these. Well, Jim McDougal was right on again about these cutlass being Brazilian...this is a nice one! Anyway, I digress... Check out this link- www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/60.html# From here, look under "more Views" and select View 3. Note the criss-cross patterning and star-like marking with dots. Last edited by M ELEY; 24th May 2008 at 05:08 AM. Reason: mis-spelling

25th May 2008, 06:43 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Mark, both for the link and for keeping to your promise. Thank you Indiana, i mean Jim . Absolutely right; weapons do not know geographic boundaries ... pitty they know price boundaries Thank you David. If i well understand you, i don't think the point was originaly off centered; this must have happened when somebody decided that this object would make a good chisel ... it seems as its hammering caused a little crack in the socket which resulted in its bending. About the provenance, i must confess that, at this stage, i have no more certainties than when i started querying on this piece, despite some respectfull opinnions posted by you Gents. However my inclination goes to both Mark's and this local guy's opinnion that it is a sort of lance or pike head. Following that reasoning, i tend to think this is not African or Afro influenced, but of (very old) European trace. Putting Africa out of question and, considering it has been picked somewhere in the interior, it would then be Portuguese or, in second place, Spanish rather than from further European countries. However naturaly i can only agree that, till some stronger evidence shows up, the game's afoot. Attached Images

14th May 2008, 12:56 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot Mark, I will surely follow your track on Spanish colonial stuff, as i will be much obliged you come back with any further material. The picture in the link is a start ... though my example looks a bit different ... cruder ... and older ? Could you at any time post (me) pictures of those cutlasses with the mentioned criss cross and star markings ? fernandoviana@netcabo.pt Thanks again Fernando

22nd May 2008, 05:16 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,145	Hello Fernando, Sorry to take awhile getting back to this thread. I am extremely computer-challenged when it comes to posting pics. RSword/Rick has helped me in the past, but alas, he has moved away Jim McDougal has personally held the cutlass in question, which he more positively identified as Brazilian and can attest to the striated lines and exact star markings on these Spanish pieces. I could try and photo them and snail-mail you a copy (if I'm lucky enough to get details out of photos) or a rubbing/tracing. Jim, do you happen to have any pics of espada with these star and line work markings??

24th May 2008, 05:37 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,198	Hi Mark, I just noted the thread, and just wanted to thank you for the kind words. I was delighted when I found the Brazilian attribution which I found in another source. It was a relief for me as well to finally find the answer to these mysterious swords after all of our pondering on them ! Besides that it opened a new dimension to our study on Spanish colonial weapons. Nice work at noting the connection on Fernando's most interesting (as always!) acquisition. All the best, Jim

24th May 2008, 06:15 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi, Interestingly Brazil's historical connections with Portugal , might explain why a Brazillian piece ended up there .....or ...if not from Brazil, could indicate that, indeed, this is very old and shows the influences that pre-date the materialised on Brazillian 'pieces'. However, as already stated 'lined designs used as decoration are found in many cultures, countries and 'time periods' and may be difficult to ID. Fernando, as I said before I have a doubt this is African but, historically Portugal and Brazil were involved in the 'slave trade' and it is quite possible that your item was influenced or made by an African culture. My main 'doubt' that this is African is the fact that the 'point' is offset from the socket. All African ones I have seen have the 'point' centrally placed. A Mystery Regards David

24th May 2008, 06:48 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,198	As a very wise arms writer once told me, "..weapons do not know geographic boundaries". While it may be difficult to assign a geographic attribution to this piece, the influences noted profoundly stand, and the slave trade definitely carried these far and wide via the vast routes that commerce followed. A mystery indeed David, and for all of us weapons Indiana Joneses ....the games afoot!!! (Holmes