Silver mounted badek for coments

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you, Tim. I discovered another thing from your languaje and found the source of confussion, as in spanish, or at least in Latin American spanish, we use the word "repujado" (repousée) in silversmithing only to the work done from the back, and chiseled to the work made from the front. We don´t have an equivalent of the word "chasing", and even in the dictionaries I just consulted right now, this word is traslated to spanish as "cincelado" or "chiselled". Is a confussion it just happens, like with the word "tempered", or in spanish "templado", which applied to steel thermal treatments in spanish means "hardened" and in english another thing. I will not commit the same error again.
With my best regards

Gonzalo

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, I am not a silversmith, nor a jeweller, so I do not know terms as they are used in the trade. Within the trade, repousse and chasing could well carry the meanings you have given.

However, in standard English usage, repousse means :- "Of metal work. Raised or beaten into relief, ornamented in relief, by means of hammering from the reverse side." (Oxford)

Chasing of metal work is actually an abbreviation of "enchasing", and it means :- "To adorn metal with work embossed or engraved in relief." (Oxford).

Thus, this silver work could be designated as chasing, since the motif incorporates embossing work as well as engraving work. The word comes from Middle English, and can be applied to not only ornamental metal work, but also other types of indentation or grooving, or to the cutting of a screw.

However, common usage would see this work designated as "embossing".

The word "emboss" can be used in a number of various applications, but the one that would concern this discussion is:- "To carve or mould in relief." (Oxford)

The silver work under discussion has been produced by a combination of moulding the motif in relief by the use of punches, and by engraving some of the details. All the ornamentation has been applied to the face of the object, it has not been applied from behind. It could be referred to as embossed work, or as chased work, but in standard English usage it would be incorrect to refer to it as repousse.


As a supplementary comment I will add this:- I have spent a lot of time watching the craftsmen of Kota Gede near Jogjakarta doing this work. It is truly amazing to watch these people, most of the time they seem to work automatically, without any apparent effort or concentration on the work. In one workshop that is owned by a friend of mine, there are perhaps 20 or more men all working alongside one another, as they work they will be smoking, and chatting about the weekend's football match, or how many fish they caught. Their attention is not directed at the work they are doing, except when they come to some difficult detail, the rest of the time they are looking everywhere else but at the job, and their hands seem to work independent of themselves. Sometimes they will work to a photograph or sketch, sometimes a motif is sketched onto the silver and they follow that, mostly they work from memory. They will be told to emboss something with such and such a motif, they will put small guide marks around the edge of the job to help them keep the correct distribution of the motif over the work area, then they will work freehand, using a variety of punches to apply the motif in relief.

[Tim Simmons]

This is an example of what we in the trade in the UK call chasing. A good chaser can make not so good work presentable, if there is the budget they can make work sparkle with life detail and grandeur. Like these feathers making them very life like in real space. wing span 35"

[Mark]

Originally Posted by fernando

What say you Mark, after the various considerations posted ?
Could this really be a neighbour of the Thai "meed pra dae" ( vide The Dha Research Glossary ), or is it better atributable to its primitive provenance ... Sulawesi, Indonesia ?
Fernando

I think that the two terms are synonymous, being simply the names for this kind of knife in the respective languages.

JT - a good point about possible Islamic influences. Craftsmen were deported from one region to another during the near-constant wars across continental SEA, so now that I think of it, it is quite possible that the style jumped that distance, in one direction or the other. I think that is more likely than simple diffusion, given the distances.

Tim - I appreciate the correction. Am I right to say, then, that the technique of filling the piece with something semi-soft is a basic part of doing repoussee/chasing? One of the things that I have to keep reminding myself is that just because I find something about manufacturing or design that seem characteristic of the particular area of my interest (SEA), it does not mean that there is anything unique about it vis a vis the rest of the world. I need to read more broadly in such areas.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes Mark. The basic design can be punched into a semi hard material, punched out from behind so to speak but one can work from the front all depending on the work. My colleague's and I would tend to see chasing as a cutting embellishment. However using the old English term explained by Alan, chasing would be punching in under cuts from the front and where needed making detailing cuts to the surface but I am not really an expert.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Mark

I think that the two terms are synonymous, being simply the names for this kind of knife in the respective languages

I am afraid i didn't make myself understood. What i meant to ask you was whether you maintain your previous sugestion quoted in post #15, concerning the possible provenance of this piece.

Originally Posted by Mark

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

The "meed pra dae" thing was only me trying to get smart.

Fernando

[Gonzalo G]

A. G. Maisey, thank you for your perspective, you sent me into a better search. I was looking in my old metalworking books, and I found a very clear reference to the point by Herbert Maryon, who, by the way, is very inn the trade, and also wrote abook which is a BIBLE among silversmiths of the classical school. In this book, titled Metal Work and Enamelling, in the chapter XIII, second paragraph, he says: "Strictly speaking, repoussé is that part of the work which is donde from the reverse side of the metal -the bossing up the lines or patterns from the back; chasing is the part which is done from the front. But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front." (Dover, Fifth Revised Edition, 1971, page 113). Please take notice that Mayron was an englishmen who recived the designation of Technical Attaché in the Research Laboratory of the British Museum, and had this position between 1945 and 1963.

So, at least in England, the term "repousé" was used in it´s classical meaning (which is the same that I use), as the work made from the back exclusively. I was not wrong, after all.

Fernando, please excuse the disgression, but we were clarifying the nature of the work done to your beautiful piece.
All my best

Gonzalo

[David]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

A. G. Maisey, thank you for your perspective, you sent me into a better search. I was looking in my old metalworking books, and I found a very clear reference to the point by Herbert Maryon, who, by the way, is very inn the trade, and also wrote abook which is a BIBLE among silversmiths of the classical school. In this book, titled Metal Work and Enamelling, in the chapter XIII, second paragraph, he says: "Strictly speaking, repoussé is that part of the work which is donde from the reverse side of the metal -the bossing up the lines or patterns from the back; chasing is the part which is done from the front. But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front." (Dover, Fifth Revised Edition, 1971, page 113). Please take notice that Mayron was an englishmen who recived the designation of Technical Attaché in the Research Laboratory of the British Museum, and had this position between 1945 and 1963.

So, at least in England, the term "repousé" was used in it´s classical meaning (which is the same that I use), as the work made from the back exclusively. I was not wrong, after all.

Fernando, please excuse the disgression, but we were clarifying the nature of the work done to your beautiful piece.
All my best

Gonzalo

Sorry, i actually read this just a little bit differently. Clearly the source you site states: "But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front". Seeing that he wrote this at least 40 years ago and that definition was in common usage then it would seem that for at least a half century and perhaps more reprousse has referred to work done from either the front or back of the metal. That's the thing about languages. Meanings change over time. If we cling to the "classical" meanings of words we might end up having a hard time understanding each other.

[Gonzalo G]

It is not so, David, as A. G. Maisey clearly stated in a previous post that the meaning is actual, as the Oxford source points in this direction. I would better say that there is a "popular" use of the word, versus a more technical one. Besides, I don´t know how old is the souce Tim mentions. It could be as old as mine. I did not obviously used the term "classical" in the sense of anachronic, but "proper". By the way, I just checked The American College Dictionary: "Repoussé 1. (of a design) raised in relief by hammering on the reverse side 2. Oramented or made in this kind of raised work." Of course, it is an actual dictionary, and this meaning of the word is supported also by an authority in metalworking which I already quoted . But if you have some better understanding of silversmithing, or a better source to contribute with, please do it, as we need to go beyond personal interpretations.

[Andrew]

[A. G. Maisey]

Although the English language can be an incredibly difficult language to use correctly, one of the great advantages of this language is that it is extremely flexible, and there are many forms and levels of expression within the language that can be acceptable . Most professions and trades have their own use for English words, and these trade usages very often are incorrect when measured by the meanings accepted in Standard English, which is the form of the English Language regarded as the norm for an educated person.

I think we can accept that within the silversmithing craft, Tim's use of repousse, and repoussage is inarguably accurate.

However, that accuracy of usage does not carry over into Standard English.

Yes, it is true that a living language develops and changes structure and meaning over time. Equally it is true that the various colloquial forms of the English Language vary from the Standard form of the language. However, since we are not all members of the silversmithing craft, and since there are defined and accurate terms available to describe this work under discussion, perhaps it might be advisable to use these Standard English terms in order to avoid confusion.

(Standard English:- "Standard English is that set of grammatical and lexical forms which is typically used in speech and writing by educated native speakers. It includes the use of colloquial and slang vocabulary, as well as swear words and taboo expressions."---Trudgill)

Within Standard English, the meanings of repousse (repoussage) and chasing are still current, and as I have given them.It not archaic usage, nor is it even slightly dated usage. It is correct usage for any educated person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

[Tim Simmons]

All I can add is that my colleagues and I employ "chasers" chaps that cut details into work. These craftspeople can create incredible effects and textures to the metal surface. Like making textures of clothing, hair and cutting some of the most sensitive of detail not just in a by numbers fashion. As I said earlier I an not an expert.

[Mark]

Completely OT - what is your new avatar, Tim? It looks like a Paleolithic mother goddess figurine.

[Gonzalo G]

Tim, beyond the subject of what is "more correct" or not in the case of this term, which is a subject of controversy, I thank you for making me understanding why the term is used idistinctly in both cases. I find that your explanation is a good and valid answer to my original question. As I said, you gave me an enlightment about another element of your languaje which I did not understand and always gave me a problem when I read it, as in the comments about Fernando´s badek silversmithing work. Very kind of you making this effort to explain.
My best regards

Gonzalo

[Tim Simmons]

Mark you are on the right track. The avatar is a carved whale bone scapula} fan with the image of Dilukai from the Caroline islands most probably Belau/Palau. A prestige mans artifact. Whales also have spiritual significant as do artifacts made from there bones. This link gives some good in formation, scroll down to "Art"
http://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%BE%...84%D8%A7%D9%88

It is one of if not the most treasured item I have. Lew gave us a glimpse of her virtue in this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6163

Here is more. You have to admit its a bit nice.

[fernando]

Feeling a bit dizzy within such vast universe of considerations, let me post here some loose notes, not without apologizing for their percentage of nonsense .
... Certainly the channel of comunication here is in english but, as we all understand, the diverse senses of its interpretation are less vital than the intrinsecal subject under apreciation, which certainly is not a ( english ) language dissection but how the object, in this case a badik scabbard, was produced, whether in an Asian or Western dialect, as long as mutual understanding may be achieved ... beyond academic, technical or current terminology.
... "Repoussé", from "repoussage", is a galicism; among other reasons, this means that the term was borrowed from french language speakers. Its use was probably preferred in other languages because either it has achieved a certain charisma or its translation would not be faithfull to the action in question, or the like.
... If we consider the strict translation of the term, we will have "re-pushed", right ? But while (at least) in coloquial French (and Portuguese) "pushing" and "pulling" are quite distinguishable, both dictionaries expand the possibility of, contextualy, "pushing" meaning also "pulling" ... for what matters.
... It could also happen that, while the discussed "repoussé" signification diverts or expands in certain languages, it remains with its strict original meaning in other/s ... not minding if this happens in its native language or in other. This to say that, while for the French (for example) could still only mean punched ( or stretched) by the converse side, for the British or Mexicans could already refer to punch from both sides of the material.
... It apears that "repoussé" is not much used in Portuguese, except maybe for some bourgeois, for whom galicisms are (still) rafineé; "repuxado", and sometimes "puxado" is what is largely used here, "puxado" being more on the verbal side.
... I have shown this badik to a local jewelery shop owner; he reckons that the work was done from the inside, with also some detail by the outside.
He added that the term "repuxado" is now currently called "estampado" (stamped), probably because nowadays these works are mechanicaly made. However he is not a smith, for what counts.
... On the other hand, i guess that the distinction in the term/s atribution by either technicians and laymen is not so just "black and white"; through time, technicians were (some still are) empirical craftsmen and not "educated" persons, giving the action their own version of the term, or the term their own meaning . Is it not due to the frequent "corruption" of the terms by "non educated" people that linguistic conventions end up officializing them and include them in the dictionaries?
... Let me stop, before you through your wrath versus my ignorance .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

I have read that it was already practised in the bronze age, and that has reached a notable perfection during Renaissance, so as later the Dutch works in the XVII century.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east.
First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty.

[Gonzalo G]

I agree with you, Tim. I find the scytian work specially good. Their mastery over this technique is incredible.

[A. G. Maisey]

Fernando, I really see no problem with terminology at all.

Tim has given us the meanings of the terms, as they are used in the trade.

Gonzalo has reinforced Tim's explanation with a further trade reference.

I have given the meanings as they would be understood by an educated native English speaker who is not a silversmith or jeweller.

The link I provided in an earlier post sets out a very clear explanation:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

In common usage, I believe most native English speakers would refer to the work as "embossed". Although not strictly correct, this is completely acceptable, and incidentally comes close to your "stamped" meaning. Modern English grammar is concerned more with the way in which words are generally used, than with strict dictionary meanings.

However, what is of interest here is the opinion of your jeweller consultant that this work was done from the inside of the scabbard.

To my knowledge, the skill to create this motif from the inside of the scabbard has never existed in Jawa, nor in Indonesia. I am very familiar with this type of work, and it is done from the outside, after the scabbard has been fabricated. Tim, who is a skilled craftsman in this work, seems to be also of the opinion that it has been done from the outside.

[Gonzalo G]

I agree with this.

[fernando]

Absolutely Alan,
As i said, the guy is not a smith.
I can further say that, if i had to choose an option, i would obviously follow your exposition which, above all, is backed by experienced observation.
But i confess that, having been self influenced by the "repousse" aproach done by the various ( four?) members, and so having been "arrested" by the projection of the term, i was predisposed to easily beleive the guy when he said that the punching on the discussed scabbard was done ( at least partially) from the inside. To tell the truth, i still look at it and still don't reject such idea .
Wasn't it Jesus thas said: the worst blind is the one that doesn't want to see?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east ...

I was only quoting what is written, more to emphasize how old this craft is and the splendour it later achieved, and not wanting to mind any judgement of value. Besides, electing the best of anything in the world is allways naturally discussable .
The pictures attached are of the famous Goa gold(en) helmet, an Indo Portuguese creation of the XVI century. It has (also) been exhibited in the Great India Exhibition, in the New York Metropolitan Museum, making part of the best four hundred art works from India. It ( supposedly) is the oldest representation of a hunting scene with firearms. A (Portuguese) hunter can be seen aiming at flying birds, with one falling after being shot.
The outer part of this helmet is in rather thick gold sheet, but the interior is "puxado" from one only piece of copper.
In this specific case, the term "puxado", which could be translated as "pushed" or "poussé", was used by a highly educated person.
I hope this piece is nice enough to deserve your apreciation .
Fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Hhmmm, its okay figures could be more defined, not sure it fits in my collection, how much do you want for it? they are quite common.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

It is not so, David, as A. G. Maisey clearly stated in a previous post that the meaning is actual, as the Oxford source points in this direction. I would better say that there is a "popular" use of the word, versus a more technical one. Besides, I don´t know how old is the souce Tim mentions. It could be as old as mine. I did not obviously used the term "classical" in the sense of anachronic, but "proper". By the way, I just checked The American College Dictionary: "Repoussé 1. (of a design) raised in relief by hammering on the reverse side 2. Oramented or made in this kind of raised work." Of course, it is an actual dictionary, and this meaning of the word is supported also by an authority in metalworking which I already quoted . But if you have some better understanding of silversmithing, or a better source to contribute with, please do it, as we need to go beyond personal interpretations.

Gonzalo, i think that you missed the point of my post. Afterall, who am i to argue with Oxford, the American College dictionary and Wikipedia.

I was merely pointing out that the source you used, Herbert Maryon, an Englishman apparently of some repute, does not seen to support your conclusion at least not in the quoted passage. This is not to say that your conclusion is wrong, i just didn't understand why you were using his quote to try to support it.
Personally i am willing to go with what ever definition gets me properly understood as that is always the bottom line.

[A. G. Maisey]

Agreed 100% David.

The function of words is to move an idea from one person to another person.

Most reasonable people will adjust their language so that they are understood by the person with whom they are currently in discussion. As an example, it would be a waste of time for somebody who is bilingual to use , say, Italian, in a discussion with a native English speaker. Similarly it is a waste of time to speak to a boundary rider from Bourke in the same language that one uses to speak to the chairman of the board, again, one does not use exactly the same form of language to speak to the chairman of the board, as one would use with one's 14 year old son.

Reasonable people usually adjust their language so that they can be understood.

We know the various ways in which to refer to this type of work.

I would suggest that it now perfectly reasonable to use any of the terms.

However, in the case of the badik scabbard, if we use "repousse" perhaps we might need to qualify that word by the addition of "anterior" , or "obverse", or some other term denoting that the work was done from the front, as distinct from the back. This would then mean that we could describe repousse done from the back of the material as "posterior" repousse.

It doesn't really matter what terms are used to describe this work, provided that a clear understanding of meaning is achieved.

[Gonzalo G]

David, I dind´t want to offend, or otherwise to post off-topic. My interpretation of what Mayron wanted to say with "strictly speaking" (strictu sensu) decided me to use that quote, but I agree with A. G. Maisey in the above comment, as the use of the other meaning implies more than two senses for this word (which is not desirable), and there is the need to specify. All this began because I wanted to say that the silversmithing work was not made from inside or backside of the scabbard, but from the front. All this subjects related to the work made in the swords are a motive of passion for me and I like to discuss them in deep, though this is not anything personal or a motive of anger. This information is also useful for me to make my silversmithing and bladesmithing work. Thank you.

[David]

Completely understood Gonzalo, no offense taken.

[Beraswutah]

dear fernando

allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dana, an edge weaponry enthusiast from Indonesia. I learn by asking several academician and Indonesian collectors...being a 9 to 5 office worker that i am, my information is limited.

Fernando, indeed, a very beautiful badik you have there.

first, i would like to share my very limited knowledge about Indo-Melayu edge weaponry.

Badik originated from the Makassar, Bugis and Mandar ethnic tribe from Sulawesi and Palembang ethnic tribes in Sumatera. As seafarers tribes, their badik's also travels along, hence we found the "badek" in Malaysia and Thailand.


There are two types of badik, indicated from its pamor, warangka or sheath. Badik saroso had pamor with gold or silver sheath sometimes also decorated with gems, while badik pateha had no pamor with soft wood for its sheath.

Im guessing that your badik saroso is made around 17-18th century, once belonged to a "cultured" or high-positioned person, a royalty or a chief.

I can say that not because of the beautiful silver mountings, but from the pamor of the badik. At that time, it is very unlikely that an average joe may possess a pamor weaponry.

Your badik is not for fighting (several times maybe...) but for ceremonial purposes, wore at the front side of the clothing ceremonies. (like having a very beautiful hand-made tie wore in special occasions from a westerners point of view) like weddings, or peace-pact agreements. That may help explains the intricate silver decorations, to show social rank of the owner.

For the beautiful silver sheath, is it original or added some other time later ? (again, im guessing that the silver is original) what kind of wood is it ? analyzing the type of wood may held detect the specific region of the badik itself.

You may try to lightly tap the badik with wood or other metal. check how it sound. High frequency would indicate a high steel composition.

Cant tell you anymore info. sometimes we just have to hold it to feel how its made..right ?

additional info on badik :

several site mentioned a badik originated from java. This is partly true. There are badik from jawa.

The story goes that during the Jawa War or Prince Diponegoro War 1825-1830 (arguably the biggest and most expensive war ever fought by the dutch to conquer Prince Diponegoro) many bugis troops voluntarily travel to Jawaassisting Prince Diponegoro against the dutch. Surely, they bring along their badiks.

In Jawaa, the javanese weaponsmith then reproduced the bugis troops badiks and swords, with a Jawanese "aura".

my friend is very lucky to have found this Jawanese made badik. i'll ask him the picture later on.

overall, a very beautiful badik. Please take a good care of it...its my national heirloom im sure its in good hand

thats my 2 cents...
sorry if my info is false or inaccurate.

cheers fernando

R. Yudhi Pradhana Prawiradirja
beraswutah.blogspot.com

[Mick]

Some of you members might remember this one. This is about the largest piece that I have ever seen. The blade is about one foor long. The grip is marine ivory.