Silver mounted badek for coments

[Mark]

Coincidentally, a dah from this thread also has this same floral design. The dha was collected in Cambodia, but I believe that it, too, is from Laos or Northern Thailand.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Mark

Coincidentally, a dah from this thread also has this same floral design. The dha was collected in Cambodia, but I believe that it, too, is from Laos or Northern Thailand.

Mark
My thought , and its just a guess, is that these floral, faunal and geometric patterns may come from the strong early Islamic influence in the indonesian area. Would early Islamic trade in the area account for migrations of these patterns to Cambodia ?

[Tim Simmons]

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

You are not being difficult. You bring out a great point I was not talking about the technique as much as these patterns. And I never meant to imply Islamic was the only influence on these patterns. Yes decorations of plant life have been used throughout the world. Depictions of birds are often attibuted to Hindu influences. As noted in "Hands of Time" by Barbara Leigh noted that Wakelin-king suggests that Indonesian designs, and indeed most designs from the western pacific region frequently conform to some or all of the following characteristics: a predispositions to arrainge motifs within compartments, the use of two dimensional rectilinear and curvilinear motifs appearing in bands or withinclearly demarcated zones, a tendency towards endless repetition, a tendency to use shallow relief forms on a flat surface in incised designs rather than sculptural or plastic forms, and a dominance of major tonal contrasts or absence of polychrome design ingredients so that the design can clearly be "read" in black and white. The floral and faunal motifs are often attributed to costal muslim influences, Some of the geometric motifs may be also though others can be traced back to the Dongson Period and these are certainly also an influence. Sumatran geometric influences can be traced back further , to approximately 2000 BC so they are also pre islamic. So I would love to hear other ideas on the origination of these motifs. Even if those ideas prove I am very wrong

[Gonzalo G]

Fernando, first of all, I didn´t congratulate you for this beautiful piece before, but I do it now. It is a very nice piece of work.

Thank you for your comments about the silver work. It happens that I studied some silversmithing and have some intimate understanding of this craft. The silversmiths in some places of Latin América uses to make hilts and scabbards of chiseled silver in the same ways than in this badik is done. We make the scabbards, fill them with a special mixture of waxes and asphaltic resin, fixi the the scabbards in a box filled with the same mixture and then chisel them from above. I mean, the work is not done from inside, or it would be called "repousee". We make the volumes and the "levels" from upside. I checked with my friends, more experienced silversmiths, and they confirmed me this bandik and scabbard was only chiseled, meaning worked form above. But as Battara says, it could be better called "chasing", as the meaning of "chiselling" has another connotations in english. The point is that the work is done from above and not from the inside. I know what do you mean by a reposee type of work, but I think this is not the case. Please see this page, where you can find illustrations of hilts and scabards chased in this way, entirely form above with the scabbard already formed and soldered:

http://www.malamudorfebre.com/english/cuchillos-en.htm

And as you say, between steps the work is reheated and then suddenly dipped in cold water with some nitric or sulphuric acid, in order to soften the metal, the acid being useful to clean it´s surface.

Thank you for your attention

Gonzalo

[fernando]

Does it help (or complicates) to show this example ?
... Both for the silver decoration, that looks partly a similar work to my ignorant eyes, as also for the blade, that somehow reminds me the one show by Alan in post #17 ... naturally influenced by the date marking attitude.
Most probably you already knew this specimen, shown here.
http://old.blades.free.fr/daggers/badik/bad03/bad03.htm
Fernando

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

The blades of Alan's and Dominque's badik are made from Dutch VOC swords - possibly the blades of broken colonial swords got recycled and given a 2nd life while your nice piece has a Javanese pamor blade.

Regards,
Kai

[fernando]

Hi Kai,
I understand that, although my intention was to remark an eventual familiarity between those blades, this has nothing in common with my example, which is of local production.
I have registered this piece of mine as being from the Sulawesi island; should i change it to Jawa, or is this an indiferent situation ?
Thanks.
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not want to appear difficult but repoussage is an ancient global technique. Even Pre Columbian Native North Americans worked copper this way.

I have read that it was already practised in the bronze age, and that has reached a notable perfection during Renaissance, so as later the Dutch works in the XVII century.

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east.
First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty.

[Gonzalo G]

I agree with you, Tim. I find the scytian work specially good. Their mastery over this technique is incredible.

[A. G. Maisey]

Fernando, I really see no problem with terminology at all.

Tim has given us the meanings of the terms, as they are used in the trade.

Gonzalo has reinforced Tim's explanation with a further trade reference.

I have given the meanings as they would be understood by an educated native English speaker who is not a silversmith or jeweller.

The link I provided in an earlier post sets out a very clear explanation:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

In common usage, I believe most native English speakers would refer to the work as "embossed". Although not strictly correct, this is completely acceptable, and incidentally comes close to your "stamped" meaning. Modern English grammar is concerned more with the way in which words are generally used, than with strict dictionary meanings.

However, what is of interest here is the opinion of your jeweller consultant that this work was done from the inside of the scabbard.

To my knowledge, the skill to create this motif from the inside of the scabbard has never existed in Jawa, nor in Indonesia. I am very familiar with this type of work, and it is done from the outside, after the scabbard has been fabricated. Tim, who is a skilled craftsman in this work, seems to be also of the opinion that it has been done from the outside.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east ...

I was only quoting what is written, more to emphasize how old this craft is and the splendour it later achieved, and not wanting to mind any judgement of value. Besides, electing the best of anything in the world is allways naturally discussable .
The pictures attached are of the famous Goa gold(en) helmet, an Indo Portuguese creation of the XVI century. It has (also) been exhibited in the Great India Exhibition, in the New York Metropolitan Museum, making part of the best four hundred art works from India. It ( supposedly) is the oldest representation of a hunting scene with firearms. A (Portuguese) hunter can be seen aiming at flying birds, with one falling after being shot.
The outer part of this helmet is in rather thick gold sheet, but the interior is "puxado" from one only piece of copper.
In this specific case, the term "puxado", which could be translated as "pushed" or "poussé", was used by a highly educated person.
I hope this piece is nice enough to deserve your apreciation .
Fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Hhmmm, its okay figures could be more defined, not sure it fits in my collection, how much do you want for it? they are quite common.