Silver mounted badek for coments

[fernando]

Originally Posted by asomotif

... Very decent IMHO

Oh boy ... thanks a lot Willem

[Mark]

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by Mark

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

I have see an Latok with this dear design on the Handle

Also some keris who had this in gold on the blade .



Ben

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Mark

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

What say you Mark, after the various considerations posted ?
Could this really be a neighbour of the Thai "meed pra dae" ( vide The Dha Research Glossary ), or is it better atributable to its primitive provenance ... Sulawesi, Indonesia ?
Fernando

[Mick]

fernando

The grip seems to be of the Javanese shape.

[Tim Simmons]

Technically speaking this is both repoussage and chasing. The repoussage {punching} can be applied on either side of the work. The highlights have been chased in {usually cutting as in engraving, to cut details in casting and other work}. This extract from "Jewelery concepts and technology" by " Oppi Untracht" A weighty tome the BIBLE for first year students, says stuff better than I can.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you, Tim. I discovered another thing from your languaje and found the source of confussion, as in spanish, or at least in Latin American spanish, we use the word "repujado" (repousée) in silversmithing only to the work done from the back, and chiseled to the work made from the front. We don´t have an equivalent of the word "chasing", and even in the dictionaries I just consulted right now, this word is traslated to spanish as "cincelado" or "chiselled". Is a confussion it just happens, like with the word "tempered", or in spanish "templado", which applied to steel thermal treatments in spanish means "hardened" and in english another thing. I will not commit the same error again.
With my best regards

Gonzalo

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, I am not a silversmith, nor a jeweller, so I do not know terms as they are used in the trade. Within the trade, repousse and chasing could well carry the meanings you have given.

However, in standard English usage, repousse means :- "Of metal work. Raised or beaten into relief, ornamented in relief, by means of hammering from the reverse side." (Oxford)

Chasing of metal work is actually an abbreviation of "enchasing", and it means :- "To adorn metal with work embossed or engraved in relief." (Oxford).

Thus, this silver work could be designated as chasing, since the motif incorporates embossing work as well as engraving work. The word comes from Middle English, and can be applied to not only ornamental metal work, but also other types of indentation or grooving, or to the cutting of a screw.

However, common usage would see this work designated as "embossing".

The word "emboss" can be used in a number of various applications, but the one that would concern this discussion is:- "To carve or mould in relief." (Oxford)

The silver work under discussion has been produced by a combination of moulding the motif in relief by the use of punches, and by engraving some of the details. All the ornamentation has been applied to the face of the object, it has not been applied from behind. It could be referred to as embossed work, or as chased work, but in standard English usage it would be incorrect to refer to it as repousse.


As a supplementary comment I will add this:- I have spent a lot of time watching the craftsmen of Kota Gede near Jogjakarta doing this work. It is truly amazing to watch these people, most of the time they seem to work automatically, without any apparent effort or concentration on the work. In one workshop that is owned by a friend of mine, there are perhaps 20 or more men all working alongside one another, as they work they will be smoking, and chatting about the weekend's football match, or how many fish they caught. Their attention is not directed at the work they are doing, except when they come to some difficult detail, the rest of the time they are looking everywhere else but at the job, and their hands seem to work independent of themselves. Sometimes they will work to a photograph or sketch, sometimes a motif is sketched onto the silver and they follow that, mostly they work from memory. They will be told to emboss something with such and such a motif, they will put small guide marks around the edge of the job to help them keep the correct distribution of the motif over the work area, then they will work freehand, using a variety of punches to apply the motif in relief.

[Beraswutah]

dear fernando

allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dana, an edge weaponry enthusiast from Indonesia. I learn by asking several academician and Indonesian collectors...being a 9 to 5 office worker that i am, my information is limited.

Fernando, indeed, a very beautiful badik you have there.

first, i would like to share my very limited knowledge about Indo-Melayu edge weaponry.

Badik originated from the Makassar, Bugis and Mandar ethnic tribe from Sulawesi and Palembang ethnic tribes in Sumatera. As seafarers tribes, their badik's also travels along, hence we found the "badek" in Malaysia and Thailand.


There are two types of badik, indicated from its pamor, warangka or sheath. Badik saroso had pamor with gold or silver sheath sometimes also decorated with gems, while badik pateha had no pamor with soft wood for its sheath.

Im guessing that your badik saroso is made around 17-18th century, once belonged to a "cultured" or high-positioned person, a royalty or a chief.

I can say that not because of the beautiful silver mountings, but from the pamor of the badik. At that time, it is very unlikely that an average joe may possess a pamor weaponry.

Your badik is not for fighting (several times maybe...) but for ceremonial purposes, wore at the front side of the clothing ceremonies. (like having a very beautiful hand-made tie wore in special occasions from a westerners point of view) like weddings, or peace-pact agreements. That may help explains the intricate silver decorations, to show social rank of the owner.

For the beautiful silver sheath, is it original or added some other time later ? (again, im guessing that the silver is original) what kind of wood is it ? analyzing the type of wood may held detect the specific region of the badik itself.

You may try to lightly tap the badik with wood or other metal. check how it sound. High frequency would indicate a high steel composition.

Cant tell you anymore info. sometimes we just have to hold it to feel how its made..right ?

additional info on badik :

several site mentioned a badik originated from java. This is partly true. There are badik from jawa.

The story goes that during the Jawa War or Prince Diponegoro War 1825-1830 (arguably the biggest and most expensive war ever fought by the dutch to conquer Prince Diponegoro) many bugis troops voluntarily travel to Jawaassisting Prince Diponegoro against the dutch. Surely, they bring along their badiks.

In Jawaa, the javanese weaponsmith then reproduced the bugis troops badiks and swords, with a Jawanese "aura".

my friend is very lucky to have found this Jawanese made badik. i'll ask him the picture later on.

overall, a very beautiful badik. Please take a good care of it...its my national heirloom im sure its in good hand

thats my 2 cents...
sorry if my info is false or inaccurate.

cheers fernando

R. Yudhi Pradhana Prawiradirja
beraswutah.blogspot.com

[Mick]

Some of you members might remember this one. This is about the largest piece that I have ever seen. The blade is about one foor long. The grip is marine ivory.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by fernando

What say you Mark, after the various considerations posted ?
Could this really be a neighbour of the Thai "meed pra dae" ( vide The Dha Research Glossary ), or is it better atributable to its primitive provenance ... Sulawesi, Indonesia ?
Fernando

I think that the two terms are synonymous, being simply the names for this kind of knife in the respective languages.

JT - a good point about possible Islamic influences. Craftsmen were deported from one region to another during the near-constant wars across continental SEA, so now that I think of it, it is quite possible that the style jumped that distance, in one direction or the other. I think that is more likely than simple diffusion, given the distances.

Tim - I appreciate the correction. Am I right to say, then, that the technique of filling the piece with something semi-soft is a basic part of doing repoussee/chasing? One of the things that I have to keep reminding myself is that just because I find something about manufacturing or design that seem characteristic of the particular area of my interest (SEA), it does not mean that there is anything unique about it vis a vis the rest of the world. I need to read more broadly in such areas.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes Mark. The basic design can be punched into a semi hard material, punched out from behind so to speak but one can work from the front all depending on the work. My colleague's and I would tend to see chasing as a cutting embellishment. However using the old English term explained by Alan, chasing would be punching in under cuts from the front and where needed making detailing cuts to the surface but I am not really an expert.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Mark

I think that the two terms are synonymous, being simply the names for this kind of knife in the respective languages

I am afraid i didn't make myself understood. What i meant to ask you was whether you maintain your previous sugestion quoted in post #15, concerning the possible provenance of this piece.

Originally Posted by Mark

The designs look Burmese to me (see example below). Maybe it is from southern Burma. They are used in both Burma and Thailand, undoubtedly due to the Malaysian influence (not the other way around).

The "meed pra dae" thing was only me trying to get smart.

Fernando

[Gonzalo G]

A. G. Maisey, thank you for your perspective, you sent me into a better search. I was looking in my old metalworking books, and I found a very clear reference to the point by Herbert Maryon, who, by the way, is very inn the trade, and also wrote abook which is a BIBLE among silversmiths of the classical school. In this book, titled Metal Work and Enamelling, in the chapter XIII, second paragraph, he says: "Strictly speaking, repoussé is that part of the work which is donde from the reverse side of the metal -the bossing up the lines or patterns from the back; chasing is the part which is done from the front. But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front." (Dover, Fifth Revised Edition, 1971, page 113). Please take notice that Mayron was an englishmen who recived the designation of Technical Attaché in the Research Laboratory of the British Museum, and had this position between 1945 and 1963.

So, at least in England, the term "repousé" was used in it´s classical meaning (which is the same that I use), as the work made from the back exclusively. I was not wrong, after all.

Fernando, please excuse the disgression, but we were clarifying the nature of the work done to your beautiful piece.
All my best

Gonzalo

[David]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

A. G. Maisey, thank you for your perspective, you sent me into a better search. I was looking in my old metalworking books, and I found a very clear reference to the point by Herbert Maryon, who, by the way, is very inn the trade, and also wrote abook which is a BIBLE among silversmiths of the classical school. In this book, titled Metal Work and Enamelling, in the chapter XIII, second paragraph, he says: "Strictly speaking, repoussé is that part of the work which is donde from the reverse side of the metal -the bossing up the lines or patterns from the back; chasing is the part which is done from the front. But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front." (Dover, Fifth Revised Edition, 1971, page 113). Please take notice that Mayron was an englishmen who recived the designation of Technical Attaché in the Research Laboratory of the British Museum, and had this position between 1945 and 1963.

So, at least in England, the term "repousé" was used in it´s classical meaning (which is the same that I use), as the work made from the back exclusively. I was not wrong, after all.

Fernando, please excuse the disgression, but we were clarifying the nature of the work done to your beautiful piece.
All my best

Gonzalo

Sorry, i actually read this just a little bit differently. Clearly the source you site states: "But in modern times the term repousé has been extended to cover all work in relief, wether donde from the back or the front". Seeing that he wrote this at least 40 years ago and that definition was in common usage then it would seem that for at least a half century and perhaps more reprousse has referred to work done from either the front or back of the metal. That's the thing about languages. Meanings change over time. If we cling to the "classical" meanings of words we might end up having a hard time understanding each other.