Another Puukko (I think ?)

[RobT]

Hi Jussi M,
Perhaps in Finland these blades aren't called Saami but that is a commonly used term for them here in the States and, as I stated in my reply, I thought the name was that of the Lap people. You have been kind enough to tell us what the Finns call this Lapland knife (and provided examples of what I believe to be Finnish made interpretations of the type). Perhaps you could also let us know what the Laplanders call it?
Sincerely,
RobT

[Lew]

Nice little knife. I just picked this up from a Finnish knife maker today.

Lew

[VVV]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi Jussi M,
Perhaps in Finland these blades aren't called Saami but that is a commonly used term for them here in the States and, as I stated in my reply, I thought the name was that of the Lap people. You have been kind enough to tell us what the Finns call this Lapland knife (and provided examples of what I believe to be Finnish made interpretations of the type). Perhaps you could also let us know what the Laplanders call it?
Sincerely,
RobT

Hi Rob,

There are 4 completely(!) different Sami-languages (South-, Torne-, Lule- and North-Sami) .
So unfortunately there isn't any generic Sami name for the Sami knife.
Of course you could agree to call it "Saami" in the US. But that's like us in Europe agreeing to call all Bowie knives "Cowboy".
Which work fine between ourselves but maybe looks a bit strange on an international forum?
Also the Sami are living outside Lapland.

Michael

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi Jussi M,
Perhaps in Finland these blades aren't called Saami but that is a commonly used term for them here in the States and, as I stated in my reply, I thought the name was that of the Lap people. You have been kind enough to tell us what the Finns call this Lapland knife (and provided examples of what I believe to be Finnish made interpretations of the type). Perhaps you could also let us know what the Laplanders call it?
Sincerely,
RobT

Hi Rob,

thanks for your clarification, I´ll try my best. First of all you should know that I am far from being a puukko expert With that in mind lets proceed.

First a few clarification regarding terms. - By Laplander I understand people who live in Lapland. Not all of them are Sami people as in general a Laplander here (speaking broadly of whole Finland now) means someone who is from and lives in the rural upper regions of our country. So, we have "regular" Laplanders and we have the Sami people who differ from the major population genetically, just like your Native Americans in USA. There are also both Swedish and Norwegian Laplanders and Sami people too.

Getting back to the knives again, you wanted to know what the Sami people call their knives? In all honesty I can not tell you for sure if the below descriptions are 100% correct as they are gleamed from written Finnish sources and I do not speak any Saame nor do I personally know anyone who does. Nevertheless I believe these names to be correct. If not, I stand corrected.

Please note that there are traditionally no middle size leukus as the middle sized knife would be lousy at all tasks: too small and light for acting as the cleaver a leuku is supposed to be and too bulky for being handy at small chores such as whittling. In the combos seen on the previous picture the small knives were all small enough to be used for small chores though they are not so handy as a "real" puukko that also come in Sami style (please see below)- Most of the leuku knives seen today are nothing more than souvenir for the typical tourists who would shun the right sized BIG knife and yet want a "real Lapland knife" not knowing what size it should be. Of course there is variation in size but the most typical leukus have circa 6-10 inch blades.

FINNISH: Lapinpuukko = Laplanders puukko (often elaborately stylized)
SAMI: "unna niibaš"(also "buiku" which translates to puukko)







FINNISH: Leuku or Lapinleuku (the later phrase Lapinleuku means "Leuku of Lapland" emphasizing the fact that it is a Laplanders big knife, this meaning that it really is a big blade)
SAMI: "stuorra niib" / "tuorraniib" ("stuorra" means big, "niib" means knife)

I hope I answered your Question satisfactorily. As previously said I am not a puukko expert nor am I any expert regarding Sami - peoples nor laplanders culture in general. I wrote my initial response from the perspective of a Finn who lives in Southern Finland. It is not uncommon to have new names for things when they are studied outside of their original cultures. Hence we Finnish call the Sami -people´s knife a Leuku even though they use the name "stuorra niib". If collectors outside Finland call the same knife a "Sami knife" or what´ll have you makes no difference as long it is understood what is meant and not meant by the name, be the name original to the artifact or not.

Thanks

Jussi

[RobT]

Hi VVV,
Given the wide spectrum of knives called Bowie, if in Europe there is a custom of calling single edge generally clip point blades with a cross guard that were used in the north American west Cowboy knives, it would be hard to argue against that convention. I have seen Mexican and Philippine clip point blades sold here in the States as Bowies. I have seen English blades made in the late 1800s called Bowies that have a false back edge in lieu of a clip point. I have seen modern custom made knives with Turkish clip points sold as Bowies. As far as I can see the only two features that a Bowie must have is a single edge and a cross guard. That guard can be oval, flat, or serpentine and, as mentioned above, the blade doesn't necessarily have to have a clip point. Hilts can be; round and encompass the tang, coffin shaped or straight scales, subhilt fighters, with or without pommels (of any shape), with bolsters or ferrules behind the guard, etc. Nobody here in the States seems to take exception to this vague categorization so I imagine north American collectors would simply say, "over in Europe they call Bowie knives Cowboy knives". It isn't the same case with the Lapland knife which has a much more tightly defined set of design parameters. So, if there are four groups of Saami people, I'll bet there are only four names for that knife and if the four groups speak the same language, I'd be surprised if there is more than one name for the knife. For my part, stuorra niib offered by Jussi M sounds good.
Sincerely,
RobT

[VVV]

Hi Rob,

Knife (the generic term) in the North Sami language, according to the official database of the Norwegian Sami "union", is:

"niibi - S, If
Inflects like: niibi - niibái - niibbiide"

In South Sami it's "nejpie" etc.

So if you use the name from the book of Jussi you could probably be understood by the North Sami.

In Norway and Sweden (= Scandinavian part) four different languages are spoken (depending on "tribe"/region)
among the Western-Sami.
In Finland and Russia, except of North Sami in Finland, the main Eastern-Sami languages
are the Inari-, Skolt-, Akkala-, Kildin- and Ter-languages.
This means that altogether 9 distinct Sami languages still remain today.
All of them with different names for the local knives.

Michael

PS Correction to above is that one of the four Western/"Scandinavian" Sami languages is called Pite-Sami,
not Torne-Sami as I erroneously wrote in the earlier post.

[RobT]

Hi VVV,
I am not entirely convinced that the differences of your examples when pronounced are as great as they appear when spelled out (i.e. the cognates dha and darb) but, for argument's sake I'll concede the point. We are then left without a commonly accepted name in Europe for this type if knife. Leuku isn't acceptable internationally because it is a Finnish word for a Lap knife. Puukko won't do either because it fails to distinguish between two stylistically different knives (and it has the same drawback as leuku). What could be more natural then to name the knife after the people it is closely associated with? We do this all the time with African pieces when the actual name of the item isn't known (witness Salumpasa or Yaka sword, Ovambo knife). What would be "strange" in an international forum about applying the same convention to a European piece?
Sincerely,
RobT

[David]

I say we just call it a sundang and be done with it!

[Lew]

It's a big knife and it's mainly used for butchering reindeer so getting into what each lapp group calls it can get quite confusing so unless there are specific styles made by these groups that can be recognized easily I do not see the point in calling it anything different. Bowie knives is a generic term for a large American fighting /butcher knives with different blade styles that changed in style and length between 1830-1900 but we still call them Bowie knives because that is the accepted name that the majority of collectors recognize. Btw Rob Bowie knives are not really cowboy knives they were originally very finely made knives more often carried by Southern gentlemen as a backup weapon due to the poor reliablity of firearms at that time.

Lew

[ariel]

RobT,
Sorry to disagree. We call African blades Tiv or Ngombe or whatever simply because we do not know what the real owners call them in their own societies and languages. Call it ignorance, laziness, condescension, Western imperialism or all of the above. Whenever we encounter new example, we should try to ascertain its native name: and if the Japanese, Dutch or Argentinians ( no particular reason for choosing those) do not want to call Leuku "Leuku", tough luck to them! It is a Leuku, and that's the end of the story. No less confusing than calling a Spanish folding knife " Navaja" or a Scottish sword " Claymore".
As per Eiler Cook, small ( women's) Lapp knife is called Trubnos, a bigger one ( utility) is Brukskniv, and the biggest one ( all-purpose) is a Storkniv in Sweden, Lapinleuku in Finnish and it is a Stournii'pe for the Lapps.

We ( I, for one) would love to know real names for a "Kerala knife", Naga two-handed sword, Afghani pseudo-shashkas, Bukharan " Khyber-like" sabers etc, etc.
It's just like the Rumpelstiltskin tale: you know the right name, you own the power over a thing.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi VVV,
Leuku isn't acceptable internationally because it is a Finnish word for a Lap knife. Puukko won't do either because it fails to distinguish between two stylistically different knives (and it has the same drawback as leuku). What could be more natural then to name the knife after the people it is closely associated with?

Good morning,

it should be remembered that Sami people are Finnish (those who live in Finland). There is no such things as a Lappland-country or Sami-country. Also, they do not live in isolation from the rest of the people who live in Lappland. A leuku is as a traditional knife for the average Northern Fin as it is for a Sami. The origin of the design may be very well Sami. During the centuries it has become broadly accepted as the best overall tool for the conditions of North, never mind your ethnic background.

A leuku, lapinleuku or stuorra niibi is still a puukko even though it has a flare of its own. If someone wants to see it as it´s own thing thats ok, as in a way it is. Here it aint so and why would also the Sami call it the big (stuorra) knife (niib, puukko) if they wouldnt see it as just a knife (puukko)? Cultures and languages evolve. Maybe the only name used for this type of knife centuries ago when no other ethnic groups lived in the North of Finland was a stuorra niib, but why indeed use the suffix big? At this age the common name for this knife here in Finland is the leuku. Odds are that most people with Sami background called it as a leuku too. Why? - because the Sami language aint common no more. Most people outside Finland who recognize this type of knife do recognize it by other names than those of the Sami-language. - For the majority it´s just a Scandinavian knife, a Finnish knife, a puukko or a leuku. The few that have ever heard of anything resembling niib or stuorra niib are few and between and odds are most of these people can be found on this an other similar forums

Best

Jussi

[VVV]

I agree of course with Jussi that the Sami are part of the country they live in and also use the local language.
Nowadays most of the Sami people live in Norway, followed by North America, Sweden, Finland and Russia (in that order).
A Puukko in Swedish or Norwegian is a kniv (= knife).
The names by Cook for Sweden are in Swedish, not any Sami language.
Trubnos should be spelled trubbnos and is implying that it doesn't have any sharp point (= dull muzzle).
Brukskniv translates to utility knife and storkniv means big knife.

Michael