Tabouka ? blade markings - makers mark ?

dugsey · 9th April 2008, 01:19 AM

I have an old sword which I believe is a Takouba, it is very basic, there is on the blade a mark,actually an identical pair of marks, with one each side of the Fuller where the shorter fullers ends. There is probably a correct name for them, but to me they look like two halves of a broken egg, with the broken bits facing away from the central Fuller. The sword is very basic, the only decoration is some crude markings on the guard, two six pointed stars on one side, the other side looks as if it had markings but they have worn away. (Through being carried ?)
Can any one help please do you know what this mark means, I have just started collecting, am am keen to find out more.I know this sword has been in the same family in UK for at least 50 years and was purchased in Africa. I have not been able to find any information on sword makers marks although I know they exist. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

katana · 10th April 2008, 07:09 PM

Hi Dugsey,
welcome to the forum

The markings represent a 'half moon' with a face, usually two facing away from each other. These were copied from European manufactured blade markings in a belief that they has talismatic/magical powers.

This is an from an interesting thread....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner.

While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception.

All very best regards,
Jim

Also check this out

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/takouba/index.html

Regards David

Lee · 10th April 2008, 09:52 PM

The marks in the linked photo are 'degenerated' half moons; consistent with the overall appearance of a local natively made blade. On trade blades of European origin, the half moons will be much beter defined.

Emanuel · 11th April 2008, 08:02 PM

Hello,

Here's an accumulation of old threads on the takouba: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=38757

Regards,
Emanuel

dugsey · 14th April 2008, 10:41 PM

Well thanks Guys, I have now worked my way through all the threads and read all the opions and advice. Phew !

Well my blade is flat, and thin, about 2-3 mm (I need a micrometer !) springy but not floppy. So I guess I have a native made blade with imitation man in the moon markings, however the fullers are well defined, and could not be defined as "Scratched on". They seem fairly regular. On one side of the blade One of the Man in the moon markings seems worn away (From repeated sharpening ?) Although the sharp edge finishes about there. There are strange slightly raised lines on the sharp edges which run at right angles to the cutting edge, I do not think they are the result of sharpening, at least not using the traditional method.
The blade also shows a swirly sort of pattern in places.

Do any of you guys have an opion ? Do I have a genuine old (ish) native blade or is it one made for the tourist trade ? I know it was brought back from North Africa about 50 years ago and has been in the same family since then.

The Sheath is leather and finished in the tradition pattern with cord and ? Tassells which are in good condition. They have obviously seen little wear and tear. (which may be a clue ?)

And if is a genuine old Tabouka, does anyone have any ideas as to its value or where I can get it appraised.

As a mere beginner, any help or advice would be much appreciated. I can upload more pics if they would be helpful.

Thanks everyone

Dugsey

Emanuel · 14th April 2008, 10:59 PM

Hello Dugsey,

In his "report from Timbuktu" (I think that's the thread) Dr.Lee mentionned piles of newly made and somewhat old takoubas. Forum member Dom also said he saw them newly-made and sold to tourists. You certainly have a native blade but likely not one that was meant for a fight. That said, I saw a documentary recently on the Hausa (or more likely the Fulani) and they were shown sharpening their takoubas. The blades were very thin and extremely flexible, and they looked like the modern ones. I think these are still being produced both for tourists and local use as personal apparel for tribal dances/ceremonies/maybe even fights. I don't think yours is older than WWII, can't prove it though.

As for value...I don't know what real value would be. on eBay bids will fluctuate wildly. Dealers will ask for a lot. Since yours has the tassels intact it may fetch a nice price even if it's all leather, who knows. There have been many of eBay that sold for peanuts, mostly the cheap new ones. I have never seen any piece on eBay or anywhere else, comparable in quality to those shown by Dr.Lee in his article.
I guess you can always list yours as a Sudanese kaskara on eBay and have the price go up

. Could you post pics?

Regards,
Emanuel

Henk · 15th April 2008, 04:05 PM

Emanuel????

Talking about money on this enlighted forum?????

Moderators, this fellow should be punished!!!!!!

Emanuel · 15th April 2008, 04:20 PM

Quite right Henk

I had already edited my post to only say what I paid for it and sold

I guess I'll remove that as well.

Lee · 15th April 2008, 04:58 PM

From your pictures, which I have taken the liberty of quoting below, I would opine that this is a genuine ethnographic specimen of fairly typical quality. The pommel does appear to have some age and is of an older form. The leather looks somewhat newer than that age from the photo, but aging would be less out of the Sahara and photos may be quite deceptive. (Indeed our tour leader on one of the trips cautioned that leather work that had been in that environment for 5 years would often appear to have an age of 50 years.)

That harsh environment is not one that leads to accumulation of much material wealth and fairly simple takoubas such as this one seem to be what is actually worn on a daily basis out in the desert.

The silver mounted ones I have pictured are, I suspect, a fairly recent silversmith's innovation in response to greater wealth among urbanized Tuareg; I doubt any that I have seen were assembled longer ago than 20 years. However, while these swords are new, the blades contained within them are often old heirlooms (for example, the 21st century sword in the logo above is built around a 17th century blade of European origin).

dugsey · 16th April 2008, 11:56 PM

Hey Guys

Many thanks for all the help and information, and yes Emanuel, I will post some more pictures when I get back from holiday in a weeks time. Am a bit pressed for time at the moment !

9th April 2008, 01:19 AM	#1
dugsey Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3	Takouba ? blade markings - makers mark ? I have an old sword which I believe is a Takouba, it is very basic, there is on the blade a mark,actually an identical pair of marks, with one each side of the Fuller where the shorter fullers ends. There is probably a correct name for them, but to me they look like two halves of a broken egg, with the broken bits facing away from the central Fuller. The sword is very basic, the only decoration is some crude markings on the guard, two six pointed stars on one side, the other side looks as if it had markings but they have worn away. (Through being carried ?) Can any one help please do you know what this mark means, I have just started collecting, am am keen to find out more.I know this sword has been in the same family in UK for at least 50 years and was purchased in Africa. I have not been able to find any information on sword makers marks although I know they exist. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. Last edited by Rick; 11th April 2008 at 05:17 AM. Reason: Title edited for clarity and to fit search profile

14th April 2008, 10:41 PM	#5
dugsey Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3	Thanks for the Information all you experts Well thanks Guys, I have now worked my way through all the threads and read all the opions and advice. Phew ! Well my blade is flat, and thin, about 2-3 mm (I need a micrometer !) springy but not floppy. So I guess I have a native made blade with imitation man in the moon markings, however the fullers are well defined, and could not be defined as "Scratched on". They seem fairly regular. On one side of the blade One of the Man in the moon markings seems worn away (From repeated sharpening ?) Although the sharp edge finishes about there. There are strange slightly raised lines on the sharp edges which run at right angles to the cutting edge, I do not think they are the result of sharpening, at least not using the traditional method. The blade also shows a swirly sort of pattern in places. Do any of you guys have an opion ? Do I have a genuine old (ish) native blade or is it one made for the tourist trade ? I know it was brought back from North Africa about 50 years ago and has been in the same family since then. The Sheath is leather and finished in the tradition pattern with cord and ? Tassells which are in good condition. They have obviously seen little wear and tear. (which may be a clue ?) And if is a genuine old Tabouka, does anyone have any ideas as to its value or where I can get it appraised. As a mere beginner, any help or advice would be much appreciated. I can upload more pics if they would be helpful. Thanks everyone Dugsey

14th April 2008, 10:59 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	No monetary appraisals Hello Dugsey, In his "report from Timbuktu" (I think that's the thread) Dr.Lee mentionned piles of newly made and somewhat old takoubas. Forum member Dom also said he saw them newly-made and sold to tourists. You certainly have a native blade but likely not one that was meant for a fight. That said, I saw a documentary recently on the Hausa (or more likely the Fulani) and they were shown sharpening their takoubas. The blades were very thin and extremely flexible, and they looked like the modern ones. I think these are still being produced both for tourists and local use as personal apparel for tribal dances/ceremonies/maybe even fights. I don't think yours is older than WWII, can't prove it though. As for value...I don't know what real value would be. on eBay bids will fluctuate wildly. Dealers will ask for a lot. Since yours has the tassels intact it may fetch a nice price even if it's all leather, who knows. There have been many of eBay that sold for peanuts, mostly the cheap new ones. I have never seen any piece on eBay or anywhere else, comparable in quality to those shown by Dr.Lee in his article. I guess you can always list yours as a Sudanese kaskara on eBay and have the price go up . Could you post pics? Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 15th April 2008 at 04:21 PM.

15th April 2008, 04:58 PM	#9
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	From your pictures, which I have taken the liberty of quoting below, I would opine that this is a genuine ethnographic specimen of fairly typical quality. The pommel does appear to have some age and is of an older form. The leather looks somewhat newer than that age from the photo, but aging would be less out of the Sahara and photos may be quite deceptive. (Indeed our tour leader on one of the trips cautioned that leather work that had been in that environment for 5 years would often appear to have an age of 50 years.) That harsh environment is not one that leads to accumulation of much material wealth and fairly simple takoubas such as this one seem to be what is actually worn on a daily basis out in the desert. The silver mounted ones I have pictured are, I suspect, a fairly recent silversmith's innovation in response to greater wealth among urbanized Tuareg; I doubt any that I have seen were assembled longer ago than 20 years. However, while these swords are new, the blades contained within them are often old heirlooms (for example, the 21st century sword in the logo above is built around a 17th century blade of European origin). Attached Images

16th April 2008, 11:56 PM	#10
dugsey Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3	Sorry I mentioned M........y, did not realise it was a rude word ! Hey Guys Many thanks for all the help and information, and yes Emanuel, I will post some more pictures when I get back from holiday in a weeks time. Am a bit pressed for time at the moment !

10th April 2008, 09:52 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	The marks in the linked photo are 'degenerated' half moons; consistent with the overall appearance of a local natively made blade. On trade blades of European origin, the half moons will be much beter defined.

11th April 2008, 08:02 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Here's an accumulation of old threads on the takouba: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=38757 Regards, Emanuel

15th April 2008, 04:05 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Emanuel???? Talking about money on this enlighted forum????? Moderators, this fellow should be punished!!!!!!

15th April 2008, 04:20 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Quite right Henk I had already edited my post to only say what I paid for it and sold I guess I'll remove that as well.