Pirate swords and weapons 2

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 04:51 PM

Hi Mark,
From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley.
It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2008, 02:20 AM

Mark,
"Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962
p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON'
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR'
Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped.

p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long.
NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON
NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann.

These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall.

Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 6th April 2008, 02:58 AM

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

I'm inclined to agree with you on the period on the hilt Mark, and the lionhead style seems very much like Revolutionary War period as seen in the many examples of lionhead shown in Neumann. I seem to have lost what stamps or markings are on the blade of this sword other than the 'motto'. It seems logical that trade products such as blades would carry any number of stamps or marks as it progressively was retraded or refurbished.
In regimental swords for example, I had one British M1899 cavalry sword whose restamped markings revealed its history much in the way the stamps in a personal passport become same history.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 7th April 2008, 02:32 AM

Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2008, 05:06 AM

Hi Mark,
The actual grip/pommel in brass with lionhead seems of the style seen in mid 18th century on American and some English swords, but the beveled solid brass hilt seems more like English swords earlier 19th c. (often seen on band swords and such). Most of these seem like they had a capstan on the pommel. I have not found anything in either Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain nor Neumann that truly corresponds however.

The hilt itself does appear assembled with the iron three bar guard. This seems to agree with other Spanish colonial blacksmith type work. I have seen a solid brass briquet hilt mounted with an iron three bar guard as well as a well cut down blade of this exact form. The lionhead is the true anomaly, but I agree with the period you suggest, probably more into early 19th c.

In 2005 there was a discussion concerning one of Custer's swords which he allegedly took in combat from a Confederate officer in the Civil War. The sword had a 19th century hilt of American military brass form, but had an unusually large blade of the Solingen form with three fullers, and the 'Spanish motto'. In 2007 I located the sword itself in the museum at the Little Bighorn in Montana, as well as biographical evidence that suggests that the sword was a war trophy actually given to him for his sword collection. It would seem that the Confederate officer from whom the sword was captured might have in turn gained the blade as a heirloom from the Mexican-American war c.1846. Mexican officers seem to have very much favored heirloom blades.

I would suspect this lionhead sword probably was put together in the latter 1820's by a by a blacksmith in the northern frontiers in Mexico, and possibly with the lionhead hilt component joined with the three bar guard. The guard seems a bit bent around. I think these often roughly fashioned swords from the very beginnings of Mexico are really fascinating! To me they are as rugged as the country itself, and having spent nearly two months in the Sonoran desert truly gave me some genuine perspective on that!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 7th April 2008, 06:28 AM

Thanks, Jim. That was something I had suspected. Perhaps it even served in the Mexican War.

5th April 2008, 04:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Mark, From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley. It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc. All the best, Jim

6th April 2008, 02:20 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Mark, "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962 p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON' NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR' Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped. p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long. NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann. These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall. Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean. All best regards, Jim

6th April 2008, 02:58 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

7th April 2008, 02:32 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.

7th April 2008, 05:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Mark, The actual grip/pommel in brass with lionhead seems of the style seen in mid 18th century on American and some English swords, but the beveled solid brass hilt seems more like English swords earlier 19th c. (often seen on band swords and such). Most of these seem like they had a capstan on the pommel. I have not found anything in either Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain nor Neumann that truly corresponds however. The hilt itself does appear assembled with the iron three bar guard. This seems to agree with other Spanish colonial blacksmith type work. I have seen a solid brass briquet hilt mounted with an iron three bar guard as well as a well cut down blade of this exact form. The lionhead is the true anomaly, but I agree with the period you suggest, probably more into early 19th c. In 2005 there was a discussion concerning one of Custer's swords which he allegedly took in combat from a Confederate officer in the Civil War. The sword had a 19th century hilt of American military brass form, but had an unusually large blade of the Solingen form with three fullers, and the 'Spanish motto'. In 2007 I located the sword itself in the museum at the Little Bighorn in Montana, as well as biographical evidence that suggests that the sword was a war trophy actually given to him for his sword collection. It would seem that the Confederate officer from whom the sword was captured might have in turn gained the blade as a heirloom from the Mexican-American war c.1846. Mexican officers seem to have very much favored heirloom blades. I would suspect this lionhead sword probably was put together in the latter 1820's by a by a blacksmith in the northern frontiers in Mexico, and possibly with the lionhead hilt component joined with the three bar guard. The guard seems a bit bent around. I think these often roughly fashioned swords from the very beginnings of Mexico are really fascinating! To me they are as rugged as the country itself, and having spent nearly two months in the Sonoran desert truly gave me some genuine perspective on that! All the best, Jim

7th April 2008, 06:28 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thanks, Jim. That was something I had suspected. Perhaps it even served in the Mexican War.