Ebay UK ban sale of "samarai swords"

spiral · 3rd April 2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Call me a barrack room lawyer. The first paragraph of section 5, antique collecting, illustrates the conduct of the past. People will freak out but the dealers know this.

Its an argument worth arguing Tim I agree. Personaly I think it covers Reenactors & registered museams. But I hope I am wrong. {sadley doubt it though having read reams od commons & lords papers on it over the last year.

Personly I think the big dealers will do ok & the small collectors & dealers will not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hopefully the Lords will come to their senses and make some changes to this law in order to make this law workable both for the collector and for the police and customs that will have to enforce it.

The people making these laws should really take a closer look on reality.
The way they are thinking now the logical path will lead to banning all knives and the introduction of chopsticks...

Sadley Its a law to pretend they are doing something about crime, to appease the over 50s who vote & the newspapers who the over 50s read rather than anything to do with realitys of life.

Spiral

kronckew · 4th April 2008, 07:31 AM

para 5a only applies if you meet the burden of proof requirement which includes having the required public liability insurance and meeting the documentation requirements to prove you are a member of one of the approved exemption groups. ie you must be a paid up and participating card carrying martial artist or reenactor or actor participating in a govt. approved and insured display or play as part of a govt. approved organization.

these arguments may eventually get you out of your cell, but when the cop pinches your shoulder and says "oi - mate whats that in yer bag?", it's going in their nice damp lockup to rust away while you go in their nice damp lockup to rust away until maybe you get your lawyer to spring you (and with a lot of luck, your sword). start spouting the law to the police and they'll just say 'save it for the judge, we don't make the law, we just enforce it'. hope y'all can afford the expense to prove you meet the exception rules. the lawyers (inc. those politicians who are mostly lawyers), will be laughing all the way to the bank.

do you want to be the one setting any future precedents?

Tim Simmons · 4th April 2008, 07:44 AM

Good morning.

Only being bit of a dabbler when it comes to collecting I do not know much about dealing. I would have thought that the organisers and owners of hired venues which hold militaria and antique events, will have the paperwork in place to satisfy all this.

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;
“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;
“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;
“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);
“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

spiral · 4th April 2008, 10:28 AM

Well the offensive & banned weapons law has been around a long time.

Post 1908 swords with curved blades of 50cm or more will be illegal as flicknives, butterfly knives, knuckle knives etc. {straight blades Oct. 2008.}

They will be listed in that same law section.

As Krockew says Trying to tell policmen , "its ok i collect them" is not realy going to work at the time.

One doesnt notice generaly notice massive trade in them even as antiques in the UK or see them shown at many fairs etc.

Sadley with Ethnographic pieces its hard to prove whether they are pre. or post 1908, & with this law the burden of proof of defense is with the sword owner.

Spiral

katana · 4th April 2008, 03:27 PM

I think generally, we are all agreed that this 'new' law seems to be 'politically' motivated.....to show the population that measures are being taken for their 'safety'. The law amendment seems very vague and ill conceived, there seems to be little input from independent experts or associations etc. that collect or use swords in their pastime or sport.

The strange thing for me ..is the increase in 'gun' related crime which is not being addressed with such 'force'

I personally feel, that this situation has been greatly 'aided' by the import of the cheap 'Samurai' swords from China. These 'flooded' the market and were readily 'available' on eBay.... with claims that the blades were 'surgical steel' ..'functional' ..'battle ready' ...etc
With the popularity of 'martial art' films recently, showing 'katana's in action' impressionable teenagers were buying these in great numbers.
Unfortunately 'impressionable' politicians seemed to have believed the 'hype' ......these cheap 'knock-offs' are 'sword' like ...in reality they are cheap and useless... the blades often snap off the poorly welded tang and 'fly off' potentially hitting anyone in the general vicinity.....so you could argue that they are dangerous

Unfortunately, the concerns of knife crime, cheap Chinese wall hangers, eBay and the recent film hype of the 'Japanese' sword have all combined in recent times........ I feel we are victims of circumstance

.

Yannis · 4th April 2008, 09:10 PM

As Eftihis said before a ban in UK will affect other countries too.

I wish you can find a solution. Maybe you can try a club of collectors or other collective action.

I wonder what will happen to all these fine auction houses who have plan auctions in the near future in UK. What will happen to the famous Arms Fair?

Anyway to those who concern I have a solution in Swap Forum. Just think on it.

===Editing====

I think I misunderstood the law. It affects only 1908 and later swords? Who will confirm the age? It is probably the same trap we are here in Greece!

BBJW · 4th April 2008, 09:56 PM

It is hard to believe this law is actually real. Thank God in the United States we have the Second Amendment... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". I've told people about this new law in the U.K. and they think I'm joking.

Sympathies
bbjw

4th April 2008, 03:27 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I think generally, we are all agreed that this 'new' law seems to be 'politically' motivated.....to show the population that measures are being taken for their 'safety'. The law amendment seems very vague and ill conceived, there seems to be little input from independent experts or associations etc. that collect or use swords in their pastime or sport. The strange thing for me ..is the increase in 'gun' related crime which is not being addressed with such 'force' I personally feel, that this situation has been greatly 'aided' by the import of the cheap 'Samurai' swords from China. These 'flooded' the market and were readily 'available' on eBay.... with claims that the blades were 'surgical steel' ..'functional' ..'battle ready' ...etc With the popularity of 'martial art' films recently, showing 'katana's in action' impressionable teenagers were buying these in great numbers. Unfortunately 'impressionable' politicians seemed to have believed the 'hype' ......these cheap 'knock-offs' are 'sword' like ...in reality they are cheap and useless... the blades often snap off the poorly welded tang and 'fly off' potentially hitting anyone in the general vicinity.....so you could argue that they are dangerous Unfortunately, the concerns of knife crime, cheap Chinese wall hangers, eBay and the recent film hype of the 'Japanese' sword have all combined in recent times........ I feel we are victims of circumstance . Last edited by katana; 4th April 2008 at 03:58 PM.

4th April 2008, 09:56 PM	#7
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 230	Hard to believe It is hard to believe this law is actually real. Thank God in the United States we have the Second Amendment... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". I've told people about this new law in the U.K. and they think I'm joking. Sympathies bbjw

4th April 2008, 07:31 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	para 5a only applies if you meet the burden of proof requirement which includes having the required public liability insurance and meeting the documentation requirements to prove you are a member of one of the approved exemption groups. ie you must be a paid up and participating card carrying martial artist or reenactor or actor participating in a govt. approved and insured display or play as part of a govt. approved organization. these arguments may eventually get you out of your cell, but when the cop pinches your shoulder and says "oi - mate whats that in yer bag?", it's going in their nice damp lockup to rust away while you go in their nice damp lockup to rust away until maybe you get your lawyer to spring you (and with a lot of luck, your sword). start spouting the law to the police and they'll just say 'save it for the judge, we don't make the law, we just enforce it'. hope y'all can afford the expense to prove you meet the exception rules. the lawyers (inc. those politicians who are mostly lawyers), will be laughing all the way to the bank. do you want to be the one setting any future precedents?

4th April 2008, 07:44 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Good morning. Only being bit of a dabbler when it comes to collecting I do not know much about dealing. I would have thought that the organisers and owners of hired venues which hold militaria and antique events, will have the paperwork in place to satisfy all this. “historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past; “insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement; “permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity; “sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r); “third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

4th April 2008, 10:28 AM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well the offensive & banned weapons law has been around a long time. Post 1908 swords with curved blades of 50cm or more will be illegal as flicknives, butterfly knives, knuckle knives etc. {straight blades Oct. 2008.} They will be listed in that same law section. As Krockew says Trying to tell policmen , "its ok i collect them" is not realy going to work at the time. One doesnt notice generaly notice massive trade in them even as antiques in the UK or see them shown at many fairs etc. Sadley with Ethnographic pieces its hard to prove whether they are pre. or post 1908, & with this law the burden of proof of defense is with the sword owner. Spiral

4th April 2008, 09:10 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	As Eftihis said before a ban in UK will affect other countries too. I wish you can find a solution. Maybe you can try a club of collectors or other collective action. I wonder what will happen to all these fine auction houses who have plan auctions in the near future in UK. What will happen to the famous Arms Fair? Anyway to those who concern I have a solution in Swap Forum. Just think on it. ===Editing==== I think I misunderstood the law. It affects only 1908 and later swords? Who will confirm the age? It is probably the same trap we are here in Greece!