Keris-making criteria (?)

Alam Shah · 2nd April 2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But I as I noted, as the two people I showed it to noted, and as you yourself would realise, Shahrial, there are words there that "smell" of a Malay base.

Thanks Alan for the effort.
There are only 3 recognisable malay words, cinta, siku and dalam. The rest... hmmm... perhaps northern malay dialect. Have to ask around up north.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2008, 10:26 PM

Yeah, looking more closely, you're probably right that there are only three unaltered Malay words. My problem is that I really do not speak Malay. Indonesian is a form of Malay with a lot of other words added in, and although my Indonesian is fluent, it is also not the Indonesian of an educated person, because I have never learnt the language in a formal way, that means that I don't really know when I'm using Indonesian words, and when I'm using Javanese words. However, it is no effort at all for me to check Indonesian or Javanese, because my wife of going on 40 years is from Jawa, and we use Indonesian/English/Javanese between ourselves every day, additionally both I and my wife are in daily contact with other people from Jawa, or who still live there. If I need to check something its as simple as raising my voice, or at most, making a phone call.I'll be very interested to see what you might be able to dig up on this matter.

Alam Shah · 3rd April 2008, 01:22 PM

Hi Alan,
I reckon it would take time to gather the necessary info... kiv till more info is available.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd April 2008, 10:22 PM

Yeah, sure, understood.

Alam Shah · 5th April 2008, 08:37 AM

It seems that I may be mistaken, it might be the 8 levels of knowledge (?). Perhaps these terms are in Bahasa Kawi (?).

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2008, 10:28 PM

As far as I can see these words do not make any sense in Kawi, Sanscrit, Old Javanese, or Balinese.

Individual words appear in Old Javanese, words close to these words appear, but exactly these words do not appear, and some words do not appear in any of the languages.

It was, and I understand, still is, common in Jawa for groups possessing esoteric knowledge or belief to have their own secret language to converse about these subjects. If the source of this is Javanese it is possible that the words used would not make sense to anybody outside the group to which this belongs. Similarly, if this practice existed (exists) in Jawa, then it is possible that it also existed in other parts of SE Asia.

It is entirely possible that it is not able to be understood by anybody other than an initiate into the group which originated it, and even if the actual words were translated, their sense would not be understood by anybody outside the group.

Maybe we're flogging a dead horse here.

Alam Shah · 7th April 2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... It is entirely possible that it is not able to be understood by anybody other than an initiate into the group which originated it, and even if the actual words were translated, their sense would not be understood by anybody outside the group.

Maybe we're flogging a dead horse here.

Ok, end of the line here. Lets move on...

2nd April 2008, 10:26 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, looking more closely, you're probably right that there are only three unaltered Malay words. My problem is that I really do not speak Malay. Indonesian is a form of Malay with a lot of other words added in, and although my Indonesian is fluent, it is also not the Indonesian of an educated person, because I have never learnt the language in a formal way, that means that I don't really know when I'm using Indonesian words, and when I'm using Javanese words. However, it is no effort at all for me to check Indonesian or Javanese, because my wife of going on 40 years is from Jawa, and we use Indonesian/English/Javanese between ourselves every day, additionally both I and my wife are in daily contact with other people from Jawa, or who still live there. If I need to check something its as simple as raising my voice, or at most, making a phone call.I'll be very interested to see what you might be able to dig up on this matter.

3rd April 2008, 01:22 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Alan, I reckon it would take time to gather the necessary info... kiv till more info is available.

3rd April 2008, 10:22 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, sure, understood.

5th April 2008, 08:37 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	It seems that I may be mistaken, it might be the 8 levels of knowledge (?). Perhaps these terms are in Bahasa Kawi (?).

6th April 2008, 10:28 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	As far as I can see these words do not make any sense in Kawi, Sanscrit, Old Javanese, or Balinese. Individual words appear in Old Javanese, words close to these words appear, but exactly these words do not appear, and some words do not appear in any of the languages. It was, and I understand, still is, common in Jawa for groups possessing esoteric knowledge or belief to have their own secret language to converse about these subjects. If the source of this is Javanese it is possible that the words used would not make sense to anybody outside the group to which this belongs. Similarly, if this practice existed (exists) in Jawa, then it is possible that it also existed in other parts of SE Asia. It is entirely possible that it is not able to be understood by anybody other than an initiate into the group which originated it, and even if the actual words were translated, their sense would not be understood by anybody outside the group. Maybe we're flogging a dead horse here.