WHAT DID I JUST BUY?? and Happy Easter for those who celebrate it.

[kahnjar1]

Described as Tibetan but is it. Sorry pics not good but best I have until item arrives.
Regards Stu

[Battara]

I would say it was later Tibetan or later Bhutanese.

Happy Easter!

[David]

I bought something very similar last Thanksgiving. Here is the link to the thread about it:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5669

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

I bought something very similar last Thanksgiving. Here is the link to the thread about it:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5669

Thanks for the thoughts, and after seeing that link, I am wondering what the scabbard is actually made of! There is obviously some sort of corrosion on it so am really keen to investigate!!
Will post better pics when it arrives.

[ZhenjieWu]

I thinks this is probably a dagger widely used in North West of China, whose name is "Bao An" dao (Bao An is the name of one minority of China).

[Battara]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I am wondering what the scabbard is actually made of!

Just based on these pctures alone, it looks like there is brass, white metal, and horn.

[kahnjar1]

It is on the way so will post better pics when it arrives. Should have it tomorrow or next day.
Stuart

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by ZhenjieWu

I thinks this is probably a dagger widely used in North West of China, whose name is "Bao An" dao (Bao An is the name of one minority of China).

Please tell me more about the Bao An people and their weapons if you can. A friend of mine found me a knife like this in Qinghai province in 1993 while pretending to be an ethnic Moslem to escape travel restrictions on westerners. I understood the knife to be made by ethnic Tibetans. In general, the layered pattern of metals and horn in the handle and pommel is quite similar to Eastern Tibetan styles such as this one:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...E5AEB600-1.jpg

Are the Bao An ethnic Tibetans, or are they a separate ethnic group, perhaps like the Yi with a Tibetan influence?
Thanks,
Josh

[David]

Good questions Josh. If you look in the thread linked to my example you will see that Ausjulius also mentions the Baoan.
"...the knife in the pick ,, looks to be baoan ... a moslem mongolian ethnic group from china..
language and culture is mixed between uzbek and mongols.. and some others"
Since i also own one of these i am equally interested in nailing down it's cultural origins. More than one source have also put these forth as Tibetan so the answer isn't at all clear to me at this point. They are nice little knives regardless, but i would still like to find a definitive answer on whose nice little knives they are.

[derek]

Hi,

These are usually described as (Tibetan) Khampa work knives: wiki on the Kham region/people.

They usually have a bit of ray skin below the throat.

[kahnjar1]

Arrived today and not a bad little piece. Not my collecting area, so it will probably end up being sold or swapped eventually, but in meantime here are a few more pics.
Dimensions are:Knife 7 1/8" with a blade of 3 3/4"
In scabbard 8 1/2" overall
The scabbard has leather between the silver bands (no rayskin) The throat of the scabbard also appears to be silver.The lower part of the scabbard is steel/iron and there is a wooden "plug" in the end.
It was described by the previous owner as a Tibetan Goat Skining Knife. I would have though it too small for that purpose.
Regards Stuart

[josh stout]

I think these may be a little different type than the ones with the rayskin. The two posted and the one I have are all substantially similar with the solid arched pommel made of layers of copper and steel, horn handle scales, and a slightly shorter blade than the more usual examples of Tibetan utility knives. I thought it was a regional difference, but maybe there is a more specific group of people such knives can be attributed to. The ones I have seen appear to be authentic items for use, but not older than late 20th c.
Josh

[derek]

I have had a few like this and a few with the ray skin over the years. Chinese and Tibetan dealers that I've bought from don't make any distinction between them, it's all khampa, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't some intentional difference beyond variation of style. The style of this particular example is usually a little heavier, less ornate, and shows hard use compared to the ray skin.

I've always noted the similarity to the Chinese eating knives with chopsticks.

-d

[David]

Originally Posted by josh stout

I think these may be a little different type than the ones with the rayskin. The two posted and the one I have are all substantially similar with the solid arched pommel made of layers of copper and steel, horn handle scales, and a slightly shorter blade than the more usual examples of Tibetan utility knives. I thought it was a regional difference, but maybe there is a more specific group of people such knives can be attributed to. The ones I have seen appear to be authentic items for use, but not older than late 20th c.
Josh

I would disagree Josh. The only real difference i see between mine with rayskin and Stu's is that Stu has leather instead. The construction of both the knife and the sheath is almost identical. I also think mine is just a little bit older than later 20thC. Maybe early to mid century.
Certainly both mine and Stu's were made for use and show such wear. I agree with Derek that there is a similarity with the Chinese trousse. These seem to be made for similar utility.

[David]

Hey Stu, i see that you have decided to sell this piece, so for now it would not be proper to continue the discussion here, but please let us know when it has actually sold (i see it is on hold at the moment) because i would like to see more definitive info come out on these interesting little knives.

[ZhenjieWu]

Originally Posted by josh stout

Please tell me more about the Bao An people and their weapons if you can. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...E5AEB600-1.jpg

Are the Bao An ethnic Tibetans, or are they a separate ethnic group, perhaps like the Yi with a Tibetan influence?
Thanks,
Josh

JOSH
The formal name of Bao An people is Bonan ethnic minority group, whose home is mainly at the foot of JiShi mountain, almost at the boundary of GanSu and QingHai province . The population of Bonan ethnic minority group is about 16,505. Their local language belong to Mongolian Austronesian. Their religion is Islam. In China, Bonan ethnic minority group is famous for their man-made knives-Bonan Dao.
I will post some typical pictures of Bonan Dao and Tibetan Dao.

ZhenJie Wu

[ZhenjieWu]

Knives of Bonan ethnic minority group

[ZhenjieWu]

Originally Posted by josh stout

A friend of mine found me a knife like this in Qinghai province in 1993 while pretending to be an ethnic Moslem to escape travel restrictions on westerners. I understood the knife to be made by ethnic Tibetans. In general, the layered pattern of metals and horn in the handle and pommel is quite similar to Eastern Tibetan styles such as this one:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...E5AEB600-1.jpg

Are the Bao An ethnic Tibetans, or are they a separate ethnic group, perhaps like the Yi with a Tibetan influence?
Thanks,
Josh

I will post some Tibetan Dao or dagger. See if they can help you. My opinion is the dao you post is a Tibetan dao, although it's not the normal style.










ZhenJie Wu

[ZhenjieWu]

When I see this picture, I am not sure about origin of Josh's knife anymore.


This is a Tibetan knife for sure.

ZhenJie Wu

[ZhenjieWu]

[IMG]tp://www.taiji.net.cn/BBS/UploadFile_Tj/2007-4/20074711554048399.jpg[/IMG]





Every one
I have to say that all pictures I posted belong to certain collectors, I just use them trying to discuss with you guys.
The origins of these pictures are http://www.chinabbz.com/bbs/read.php?tid=23338 and http://hfsword.com.

ZhenJie Wu

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you, good stuff .

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by ZhenjieWu

JOSH
The formal name of Bao An people is Bonan ethnic minority group, whose home is mainly at the foot of JiShi mountain, almost at the boundary of GanSu and QingHai province . The population of Bonan ethnic minority group is about 16,505. Their local language belong to Mongolian Austronesian. Their religion is Islam. In China, Bonan ethnic minority group is famous for their man-made knives-Bonan Dao.
I will post some typical pictures of Bonan Dao and Tibetan Dao.

ZhenJie Wu

Well it wasn't my knife that started the discussion, but the Bonan knives you posted look just like the one I have, including the engraving of the hand on the blade of one of them. Thank you for helping to identify this distinct style. The long dao I posted is certainly of the Eastern Tibetan style and comes from the same region. I think more and more things are coming out of QingHai and the Gansu border region. It is fascinating to see the confluence of Tibetan, Mongolian, and ethnic styles. The Yi things you posted are almost certainly from approximately the same region. (the second one you posted belonged to a friend of mine, I love how small the collecting world is.) The Tibetan long dao from that region show similarities to the weapons of the other regional ethnic groups in the copper/brass work, and in the lack of a guard on many of the long dao.

(http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...rrent=01-3.jpg

and

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ation383-1.jpg).

Others that do have a guard seem to use more bone and horn than Tibetan things from further west

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/10.jpg

and see the one I already posted on this thread).

One thing I have noticed is that the folding seems more refined than the usual bold lines of Tibetan hairpin construction.

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation388.jpg)

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/pekhopai/07.jpg)

Notice how on this second one each dark line is actually made of many separate folds.

However, the Yi things I have seen, and the one I have, show stronger lines typical of Tibetan things from further west.

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation374.jpg)

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation375.jpg)

I suspect that the Yi may have traded for their blades.

Thanks again for the extremely informative posts. I am beginning to get the sense of a regional style shared by several peoples each with their own characteristics. This is ethnographic weapons at its best!
Josh

[David]

I do understand how threads evolve, but i am not quite sure how we got for these little utility knives to these long pattern welded daos, so i would like to try to steer thr thread back to the original type of knife in question.
Frankly the constuction and materials used in the Bao An knives that ZhenjieWu posted seems very different from both the knife that started this thread and my own which i already linked to:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5669
...so i am inclined to believe that these knives are NOT Bao An, but perhaps Tibetan as they have also been IDed as.

[josh stout]

The Tibetan knife ZhenjieWu posted has a single line of copper on the pommel, and the pommel is no wider than the rest of the handle. This is the same style seen on Chinese, Mongolian, and Manchu utility knives. The Boan dao posted by ZhenjieWu all have flaring pommels with decorative copper/brass work. The two knives posted by other members share this characteristic pommel design, so until a similar example can be found from another culture, I will agree with ZhenjieWu that these are Boan dao.
Josh

[David]

Originally Posted by josh stout

The Tibetan knife ZhenjieWu posted has a single line of copper on the pommel, and the pommel is no wider than the rest of the handle. This is the same style seen on Chinese, Mongolian, and Manchu utility knives. The Boan dao posted by ZhenjieWu all have flaring pommels with decorative copper/brass work. The two knives posted by other members share this characteristic pommel design, so until a similar example can be found from another culture, I will agree with ZhenjieWu that these are Boan dao.
Josh

Josh, i think if you look closely at the hilt on the Tibetan knife ZhenjieWu posted i think you can just barely see that it flares out ever so slightly in much the same way as my example. The flare style on the Boan knives he posted is stylistically much different as are the materials used. If you go to my linked example and scoll down you will see another "Tibetan" knife that i posted that has a fancier sheath, but still in the same style with rayskin in the middle. Same bone handle like mine, Stuart's and ZhenjieWu's (Tibetan) examples. Same basic sheath designs, though some are fancier than other's. I still lean towards Tibetan origin based on what has been presented here.