End of sword collecting in the UK

spiral · 8th March 2008, 12:12 AM

Poorly written laws from a goverment that is mostly made up of barristers is deliberate not an error.

They can interpret such a law in any way they wish. That give them greater power than if the law looked written by someone over the age of 10....

Trying to proove an undated tulwar is probably 150 years old not 90 in an antique shop or market or if stopped driving home to the average PC plod should be interesting & probably rather futile though.

WW1 Austrian, Gertman & British trophys will be officialy legal to trade.

if your wealthy enough to have a top lawyer & barrister to pay experts, {such as ourselves?} to proove its over 100 years old your probably ok, if your on legal aid or low wages, your in trouble.

"Wish i were a rich man Yabba , yabba doo, all daylong etc. etc....."

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 8th March 2008, 06:31 AM

Yes, I understand why you might think in this way Spiral, and quite honestly, I used to hold the same opinion.

I no longer hold that opinion as one that is universally applicable.

I think that in some instances the attitude might be:- " that's good enough for the purpose; let the courts sort it out"

I think in other cases the attitude could be:- "not politically important, we've already spent more than enough time on this; let it go as is"

In other cases---and this I know to be true--- the responsible politician doesn't even look at the report or the proposed legislation, and acts on the advice of a bureaucrat.

However, whatever the reason might be that poorly written legislation is passed into law, the end result is too often the same:- a weakening of the legal fabric that could be regarded as the primary control ensuring a well regulated society.

Kate · 3rd April 2008, 09:32 PM

Sorry chaps there is no exemption of "antique". Even if there were, there are many of us who collect named regimental blades of WW1
Please see the Act -

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra...110810324_en_1

Very simple - all banned except Japanese made!

spiral · 6th April 2008, 07:47 PM

No thats an over simplification Kate!

Its an ammendment to the offensive weapons act, the antique exemption to this ammendment are already written in that act.

The new ammended exceptions to the sword part are....

5. For the purposes of paragraph 4—

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;
“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;
“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;
“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);
“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

To use your own words "its that simple!" Or more complicated than it seems at first perhaps!

But in 10 years time you might be right.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2008, 08:13 PM

We need a real lawyer to expand on this point, especially when a venue has third party insurance.

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;

A militeria fair or exposition would include-

"illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past"

So as I read it, if the venue is an organised event with the necessary insurance in place the purchase and sale of ww1 and ww2 items should be okay. It means that you just cannot pick the things up anywhere anytime from anybody unless they are less than 50cm from tip to handle in a straight line? In this I can see a vain attempt to stop the opportunist use of a longish sharp sword.

spiral · 6th April 2008, 08:38 PM

Try BritishBlades law section Tim, it full of lawyers & policemen as well as the commoners who have been discusimg this for months.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 6th April 2008, 08:54 PM

Thanks for that. I gave it a try. Ignoring all the emotional stuff one good thing I could glean from ask a COP is that COPS work on discretion. So at my next militeria fair of which there are two organisers, held roughly quarterly in my local. Both almost adjacent to the respective COP shop. When I attend the next event I will see if the police raid it like a speakeasy. There will be one coming up soon i'll pass on my findings. If I a not in chains

.

kronckew · 7th April 2008, 12:16 PM

OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October.

has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'.

i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud...

i see the home office says

1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'.
2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office.
3. goto 1

i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

Mark · 7th April 2008, 09:30 PM

The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe?

Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately.

3rd April 2008, 09:32 PM	#3
Kate Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3	Samurai Act 2008 Sorry chaps there is no exemption of "antique". Even if there were, there are many of us who collect named regimental blades of WW1 Please see the Act - http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra...110810324_en_1 Very simple - all banned except Japanese made!

8th March 2008, 12:12 AM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Poorly written laws from a goverment that is mostly made up of barristers is deliberate not an error. They can interpret such a law in any way they wish. That give them greater power than if the law looked written by someone over the age of 10.... Trying to proove an undated tulwar is probably 150 years old not 90 in an antique shop or market or if stopped driving home to the average PC plod should be interesting & probably rather futile though. WW1 Austrian, Gertman & British trophys will be officialy legal to trade. if your wealthy enough to have a top lawyer & barrister to pay experts, {such as ourselves?} to proove its over 100 years old your probably ok, if your on legal aid or low wages, your in trouble. "Wish i were a rich man Yabba , yabba doo, all daylong etc. etc....." Spiral

8th March 2008, 06:31 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, I understand why you might think in this way Spiral, and quite honestly, I used to hold the same opinion. I no longer hold that opinion as one that is universally applicable. I think that in some instances the attitude might be:- " that's good enough for the purpose; let the courts sort it out" I think in other cases the attitude could be:- "not politically important, we've already spent more than enough time on this; let it go as is" In other cases---and this I know to be true--- the responsible politician doesn't even look at the report or the proposed legislation, and acts on the advice of a bureaucrat. However, whatever the reason might be that poorly written legislation is passed into law, the end result is too often the same:- a weakening of the legal fabric that could be regarded as the primary control ensuring a well regulated society.

6th April 2008, 07:47 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	No thats an over simplification Kate! Its an ammendment to the offensive weapons act, the antique exemption to this ammendment are already written in that act. The new ammended exceptions to the sword part are.... 5. For the purposes of paragraph 4— “historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past; “insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement; “permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity; “sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r); “third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public. To use your own words "its that simple!" Or more complicated than it seems at first perhaps! But in 10 years time you might be right. Spiral

6th April 2008, 08:13 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	We need a real lawyer to expand on this point, especially when a venue has third party insurance. “historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past; A militeria fair or exposition would include- "illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past" So as I read it, if the venue is an organised event with the necessary insurance in place the purchase and sale of ww1 and ww2 items should be okay. It means that you just cannot pick the things up anywhere anytime from anybody unless they are less than 50cm from tip to handle in a straight line? In this I can see a vain attempt to stop the opportunist use of a longish sharp sword.

6th April 2008, 08:38 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Try BritishBlades law section Tim, it full of lawyers & policemen as well as the commoners who have been discusimg this for months. Spiral

6th April 2008, 08:54 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Thanks for that. I gave it a try. Ignoring all the emotional stuff one good thing I could glean from ask a COP is that COPS work on discretion. So at my next militeria fair of which there are two organisers, held roughly quarterly in my local. Both almost adjacent to the respective COP shop. When I attend the next event I will see if the police raid it like a speakeasy. There will be one coming up soon i'll pass on my findings. If I a not in chains .

7th April 2008, 12:16 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October. has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'. i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud... i see the home office says 1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'. 2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office. 3. goto 1 i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

7th April 2008, 09:30 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe? Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately.