Chinese Jian

josh stout · 3rd March 2008, 06:08 PM

I think you have a very nice find, but there are a few issues and questions that will have to wait until you have it in hand. The Yazi guard is typical in form, but usually associated with more decorated fittings. Considering the somewhat crude finish on it, it may be a later replacement. I can't tell if the blade is truly pattern welded. That is the big question. The lines I see, make me suspicious, but I just bought one with a very similar look to the pattern and it was genuine. The blade does not appear to have been used after being joined with the fittings. Points that sharp are rare on antiques, but may indicate a sword kept in exceptionally good condition, or that the blade was reshaped. If it was reshaped I would guess it was done at the same time as it was put together with the fittings.

The yellow paint on the fittings is typical of period restorations, or may even be original. I have a jian and a dao where the blades and steel fittings were painted silver. Some nice early 20th C. Chinese blades were nickle plated over good steel. I have the feeling that paint was used in the same spirit, to make something nice and shiny and "modern" looking.

I recently bought a blade where I thought the stars were darkened like the ones shown, and they turned out to be missing. Brass does not usually get that dark especially when the steel is bright.

The fittings in general look very good with the rounded puffy look of originals. They seem like they would match an "ace of spades" guard better.

My guess is that this jian has been restored at least once in the very late Qing or early Republican period. The guard may be newer than that. If the blade is pattern welded, my guess is you have something very nice, and assuming the price was risk adjusted, I think you did very well. There is a chance that a non-pattern welded blade was used in the period restoration. That would be unfortunate.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 3rd March 2008, 11:18 PM

Thanks Josh, I will wait in anticipation with fingers crossed.

regrads

Gav

RSWORD · 4th March 2008, 03:39 AM

I agree with Josh on his overall assessment of the sword. Vintage jian of this length are quite hard to come by and this makes it a desirable piece. I suspect the blade is pattern welded because in some of the overall shots I can see evidence of a "hamon" which would indicate heat treated, hardened edges. The blade is too scratched up and covered in grease to see if there is a lamellar pattern to the body of the blade so hopefully after a light cleaning this will be more evident. However, an antique jian will have hard edges so I recommend testing this once you have it in hand. Other than the crude guard everything else looks late Qing. The chord grip shows some wear and the wood beneath shows a good patina. The cloth tassles are a bit tattered but show good age themselves. I have also seen the painted fittings and have an example in my collection that is also gold colored. Has a very village or provincial feel with rough lacquered or painted scabbards and painted fittings but then again that is a bit of character, eh. While not the prettiest card in the deck I think it had a long service life and certainly a user for personal defense in the late Qing period with a crude guard added at an unknown date. Overall, if the blade is indeed period-which I suspect- I think you did quite well.

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2008, 03:56 AM

Thanks Rick, I am glad you came on board with this one and your words are reassuring, it just can't get here quick enough now.
You must have good eyes because I cannot see the heat treating you are refering to on the edges but like you say it is covered in grease.
With regards to the crude guard, I have seen this image on a good many smaller straight swords and on those paired swords that sit back to back in a single sheath, are these that I refer too of the same period or are they fantasy swords for want of a better word?
Would you be kind enough to share your Chinese sword collection either here or in another thread as I would love to see them for a visual learning display and comparrison to what is available in the market place.

best regards

Gavin

josh stout · 4th March 2008, 06:11 PM

The Yazi guard commonly seen on Chinese antiques has a multi-dynastic history, and may be related to the Makara. Both are water beasts with upturned noses. The style of the guard on your jian, is typical of Qing style guards, but looks like it may be a cast copy of an origenal. Generaly the fittings on your jian seem more likely to be matched with an ace of spades guard. Also, generaly the Yazi guard is an earlier type than the ace of spades, so seeing the Yazi guard makes me think it was a later replacement. Alternatively, the overall "village" look of your jian may expain the crude re-cast look of the guard. Mixed fittings are not uncommon on village things that are often refit with whatever is handy.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2008, 06:23 PM

Thanks Josh, given the time, would you also be able to share images of your Chinese weaponry.

regards

Gav

RSWORD · 4th March 2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks Rick, I am glad you came on board with this one and your words are reassuring, it just can't get here quick enough now.
You must have good eyes because I cannot see the heat treating you are refering to on the edges but like you say it is covered in grease.
With regards to the crude guard, I have seen this image on a good many smaller straight swords and on those paired swords that sit back to back in a single sheath, are these that I refer too of the same period or are they fantasy swords for want of a better word?
Would you be kind enough to share your Chinese sword collection either here or in another thread as I would love to see them for a visual learning display and comparrison to what is available in the market place.

best regards

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

I am traveling at the moment but when I return this weekend I'll see if I can scrape together a few pictures of examples in my collection.

Gavin Nugent · 7th March 2008, 01:09 PM

Thanks Rick, I look forward to viewing them. If you catch this posting Josh, I'd love to see your Chinese swords too, and for that matter, anyone else out there who has examples they can share.

regards

Gavin

josh stout · 7th March 2008, 04:49 PM

I will see if I can get some newer pictures of things soon. Most of the pictures I have at the moment have already been posted somewhere. So anyway, here are a few randomly selected Chinese antiques that I don't think I have posted on this forum.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...B4E5888002.jpg

This is a willow leaf dao with a widening of the tip that makes it what Phillip Tom has called a "proto-oxtail dao". It would have been a military weapon. The handle wood is obviously new, but the pommel and guard are typical 19th c. Qing military fittings.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...opai/dadao.jpg

This is a civilian weapon often called a podao/pudao. It differs from the dadao in that the handle length equals the blade length.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation358.jpg

This is an atypical dadao with a willow leaf blade next to an extra large oxtail dao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation359.jpg

Same.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation360.jpg

Tip of the dadao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation364.jpg

Dragon decoration on blade of dadao.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation362.jpg

"Good luck" characters added by period owner.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation365.jpg

Handle with original wrap.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation338.jpg

Some village made shuang jian.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation342.jpg

The blades showing unusual versions of the typical stars.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...58F8CE5899.jpg

Full length picture.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg

A chopper of ambiguous name, that is similar to one seen in Qinlong era regulations. In the regulations it is called a pudao, Scott Rodell calls it a "demon head chopper" the dealer called a yantoudao (flying goose knife?), and I have seen other names proposed.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...Gb_MesfiRP.jpg

Duan jian with village made guard and scabbard.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...pai/mm5658.jpg

3000 g pole arm blade on a cut down handle.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ai/0e79_12.jpg

Full size pole arm without a clear name.

OK, I obviously just broke the "one sword one thread" rule, but it seemed like a good time to get some random pictures out there. These are typical of most of the things in my collection. They are not top quality with beautiful fittings, but the blades are all good pattern welded steel. They are just a random selection of things I already have pictures of. I would be happy to discuss things in detail, or if you have a question about a particular type of sword, I can start a thread with additional examples, but that could take some time.
Josh

3rd March 2008, 11:18 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Josh Thanks Josh, I will wait in anticipation with fingers crossed. regrads Gav

4th March 2008, 03:56 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Rick Thanks Rick, I am glad you came on board with this one and your words are reassuring, it just can't get here quick enough now. You must have good eyes because I cannot see the heat treating you are refering to on the edges but like you say it is covered in grease. With regards to the crude guard, I have seen this image on a good many smaller straight swords and on those paired swords that sit back to back in a single sheath, are these that I refer too of the same period or are they fantasy swords for want of a better word? Would you be kind enough to share your Chinese sword collection either here or in another thread as I would love to see them for a visual learning display and comparrison to what is available in the market place. best regards Gavin

4th March 2008, 06:23 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Josh Thanks Josh, given the time, would you also be able to share images of your Chinese weaponry. regards Gav

7th March 2008, 01:09 PM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks guys Thanks Rick, I look forward to viewing them. If you catch this posting Josh, I'd love to see your Chinese swords too, and for that matter, anyone else out there who has examples they can share. regards Gavin

3rd March 2008, 06:08 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I think you have a very nice find, but there are a few issues and questions that will have to wait until you have it in hand. The Yazi guard is typical in form, but usually associated with more decorated fittings. Considering the somewhat crude finish on it, it may be a later replacement. I can't tell if the blade is truly pattern welded. That is the big question. The lines I see, make me suspicious, but I just bought one with a very similar look to the pattern and it was genuine. The blade does not appear to have been used after being joined with the fittings. Points that sharp are rare on antiques, but may indicate a sword kept in exceptionally good condition, or that the blade was reshaped. If it was reshaped I would guess it was done at the same time as it was put together with the fittings. The yellow paint on the fittings is typical of period restorations, or may even be original. I have a jian and a dao where the blades and steel fittings were painted silver. Some nice early 20th C. Chinese blades were nickle plated over good steel. I have the feeling that paint was used in the same spirit, to make something nice and shiny and "modern" looking. I recently bought a blade where I thought the stars were darkened like the ones shown, and they turned out to be missing. Brass does not usually get that dark especially when the steel is bright. The fittings in general look very good with the rounded puffy look of originals. They seem like they would match an "ace of spades" guard better. My guess is that this jian has been restored at least once in the very late Qing or early Republican period. The guard may be newer than that. If the blade is pattern welded, my guess is you have something very nice, and assuming the price was risk adjusted, I think you did very well. There is a chance that a non-pattern welded blade was used in the period restoration. That would be unfortunate. Josh

4th March 2008, 03:39 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	I agree with Josh on his overall assessment of the sword. Vintage jian of this length are quite hard to come by and this makes it a desirable piece. I suspect the blade is pattern welded because in some of the overall shots I can see evidence of a "hamon" which would indicate heat treated, hardened edges. The blade is too scratched up and covered in grease to see if there is a lamellar pattern to the body of the blade so hopefully after a light cleaning this will be more evident. However, an antique jian will have hard edges so I recommend testing this once you have it in hand. Other than the crude guard everything else looks late Qing. The chord grip shows some wear and the wood beneath shows a good patina. The cloth tassles are a bit tattered but show good age themselves. I have also seen the painted fittings and have an example in my collection that is also gold colored. Has a very village or provincial feel with rough lacquered or painted scabbards and painted fittings but then again that is a bit of character, eh. While not the prettiest card in the deck I think it had a long service life and certainly a user for personal defense in the late Qing period with a crude guard added at an unknown date. Overall, if the blade is indeed period-which I suspect- I think you did quite well.

4th March 2008, 06:11 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The Yazi guard commonly seen on Chinese antiques has a multi-dynastic history, and may be related to the Makara. Both are water beasts with upturned noses. The style of the guard on your jian, is typical of Qing style guards, but looks like it may be a cast copy of an origenal. Generaly the fittings on your jian seem more likely to be matched with an ace of spades guard. Also, generaly the Yazi guard is an earlier type than the ace of spades, so seeing the Yazi guard makes me think it was a later replacement. Alternatively, the overall "village" look of your jian may expain the crude re-cast look of the guard. Mixed fittings are not uncommon on village things that are often refit with whatever is handy. Josh

7th March 2008, 04:49 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I will see if I can get some newer pictures of things soon. Most of the pictures I have at the moment have already been posted somewhere. So anyway, here are a few randomly selected Chinese antiques that I don't think I have posted on this forum. http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...B4E5888002.jpg This is a willow leaf dao with a widening of the tip that makes it what Phillip Tom has called a "proto-oxtail dao". It would have been a military weapon. The handle wood is obviously new, but the pommel and guard are typical 19th c. Qing military fittings. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...opai/dadao.jpg This is a civilian weapon often called a podao/pudao. It differs from the dadao in that the handle length equals the blade length. http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation358.jpg This is an atypical dadao with a willow leaf blade next to an extra large oxtail dao. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation359.jpg Same. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation360.jpg Tip of the dadao. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation364.jpg Dragon decoration on blade of dadao. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation362.jpg "Good luck" characters added by period owner. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation365.jpg Handle with original wrap. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation338.jpg Some village made shuang jian. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation342.jpg The blades showing unusual versions of the typical stars. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...58F8CE5899.jpg Full length picture. http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...LoGrH1o-To.jpg A chopper of ambiguous name, that is similar to one seen in Qinlong era regulations. In the regulations it is called a pudao, Scott Rodell calls it a "demon head chopper" the dealer called a yantoudao (flying goose knife?), and I have seen other names proposed. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...Gb_MesfiRP.jpg Duan jian with village made guard and scabbard. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...pai/mm5658.jpg 3000 g pole arm blade on a cut down handle. http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ai/0e79_12.jpg Full size pole arm without a clear name. OK, I obviously just broke the "one sword one thread" rule, but it seemed like a good time to get some random pictures out there. These are typical of most of the things in my collection. They are not top quality with beautiful fittings, but the blades are all good pattern welded steel. They are just a random selection of things I already have pictures of. I would be happy to discuss things in detail, or if you have a question about a particular type of sword, I can start a thread with additional examples, but that could take some time. Josh