Ideas?

Tim Simmons · 24th February 2008, 07:56 PM

Alan I disagree with you ideas on village work. "Village work" is another one of those rather hackneyed collector terms. Look at how sensitively carved the gesture to the head is on that hilt. I will dare to suggest that primitive is not lacking in artistic expression or ability. When one comperes this example to many over done jewel encrusted gaudy examples perhaps you might see it in another light. Just compere the simple pleasing carving to the second example. I might suggest that the first example is an immediate personal response in a cultural frame work, where as the second example has been carved to please a third party. I confess to knowing nothing about this type of thing.

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2008, 10:11 PM

Tim, you are of course free to disagree with anything that I, or anybody else may write, and I agree, my use of the terminology "village work" is a simplification.However, let us establish one thing:- I have not stated my ideas on village work, so it is not my ideas with which you disagree, but my terminology.

I simplified because I did wish to write extensively on the differences between the work of a professional tukang jejeran , and work done by a person for his own gratification.

The hilt of which I posted images is most definitely not the work of a professional carver. It is something that has been carved by an individual for his personal use. This individual would have been outside the influence of a kraton, and would very probably have lived in a rural situation.There is no doubt that this hilt shows considerable charm, and great sensitivity on the part of the carver, but it is not the work of a skilled person.This is what makes it unique, and why it should be carefully studied and thought upon, by any serious student of the keris.In my opinion, more can be learnt from this type of hilt, of the true meaning of the keris to people at the grassroots of the culture, than can be learnt from the over refined stylization to be found in kraton controlled examples.

To my way of thinking, this hilt is worthy of the closest attention. Far more so than the bulk of the ivory hilts that I posted to a different thread.

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2008, 10:24 PM

Michel, you are a remarkably well mannered man, however, I personally do not consider your apology is at all necessary. There is some similarity between your hilt and the one I posted , but I do not think your hilt is folk work---I'll use "folk work" in deference to Tim's objection to my previous term "village work".

The execution of your hilt shows a degree of professionalism, and an understanding of traditional motifs. To me, it looks like something that was done in Madura, early in the current era. I have seen a great many hilts of similar quality that show totally uninterpretable representations of something or other. It is almost as if the carvers say to themselves---"well, I'm sick and tired of doing such and such, let's see what I can come up with today." They carve for commercial purposes, and they know the value of a unique representation.

kai · 24th February 2008, 11:17 PM

Hello Alan,

Thanks for posting this puzzling piece! Any pic of its base with the hole?

How long is the hilt?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2008, 11:58 PM

I could do a pic of the base and hole, Kai, but it won't tell you anything---its just a normal round base with a round hole. You'll learn absolutely nothing from the base.

Length is near enough to 10cm.

Marcokeris · 4th March 2008, 07:58 AM

Fom Holstein book (1931) another keris hilt with a similar posture

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2008, 12:24 PM

Good morning forumites, just a theory, and my 2 cents worth, could these first 2 hilts pictured in the discussions have something to do with representing mourning rather than prayer? Saying that, there is obviously prayer within mourning in our societies, but these hilts look to me like there is some degree of sadness within the figures.

regards

Gavin

4th March 2008, 07:58 AM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Fom Holstein book (1931) another keris hilt with a similar posture Attached Images

4th March 2008, 12:24 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The hilts in question Good morning forumites, just a theory, and my 2 cents worth, could these first 2 hilts pictured in the discussions have something to do with representing mourning rather than prayer? Saying that, there is obviously prayer within mourning in our societies, but these hilts look to me like there is some degree of sadness within the figures. regards Gavin

24th February 2008, 07:56 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Alan I disagree with you ideas on village work. "Village work" is another one of those rather hackneyed collector terms. Look at how sensitively carved the gesture to the head is on that hilt. I will dare to suggest that primitive is not lacking in artistic expression or ability. When one comperes this example to many over done jewel encrusted gaudy examples perhaps you might see it in another light. Just compere the simple pleasing carving to the second example. I might suggest that the first example is an immediate personal response in a cultural frame work, where as the second example has been carved to please a third party. I confess to knowing nothing about this type of thing.

24th February 2008, 10:11 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Tim, you are of course free to disagree with anything that I, or anybody else may write, and I agree, my use of the terminology "village work" is a simplification.However, let us establish one thing:- I have not stated my ideas on village work, so it is not my ideas with which you disagree, but my terminology. I simplified because I did wish to write extensively on the differences between the work of a professional tukang jejeran , and work done by a person for his own gratification. The hilt of which I posted images is most definitely not the work of a professional carver. It is something that has been carved by an individual for his personal use. This individual would have been outside the influence of a kraton, and would very probably have lived in a rural situation.There is no doubt that this hilt shows considerable charm, and great sensitivity on the part of the carver, but it is not the work of a skilled person.This is what makes it unique, and why it should be carefully studied and thought upon, by any serious student of the keris.In my opinion, more can be learnt from this type of hilt, of the true meaning of the keris to people at the grassroots of the culture, than can be learnt from the over refined stylization to be found in kraton controlled examples. To my way of thinking, this hilt is worthy of the closest attention. Far more so than the bulk of the ivory hilts that I posted to a different thread.

24th February 2008, 10:24 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Michel, you are a remarkably well mannered man, however, I personally do not consider your apology is at all necessary. There is some similarity between your hilt and the one I posted , but I do not think your hilt is folk work---I'll use "folk work" in deference to Tim's objection to my previous term "village work". The execution of your hilt shows a degree of professionalism, and an understanding of traditional motifs. To me, it looks like something that was done in Madura, early in the current era. I have seen a great many hilts of similar quality that show totally uninterpretable representations of something or other. It is almost as if the carvers say to themselves---"well, I'm sick and tired of doing such and such, let's see what I can come up with today." They carve for commercial purposes, and they know the value of a unique representation.

24th February 2008, 11:17 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, Thanks for posting this puzzling piece! Any pic of its base with the hole? How long is the hilt? Regards, Kai

24th February 2008, 11:58 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I could do a pic of the base and hole, Kai, but it won't tell you anything---its just a normal round base with a round hole. You'll learn absolutely nothing from the base. Length is near enough to 10cm.