Pirate swords and weapons

kahnjar1 · 21st February 2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Known as LANTAKA cannon. A couple of pics of these at Fort Siloso, Singapore. Origin is Portuguese I believe and no doubt were used to either repel boaders or to clear the decks of opposition during boarding.
Regards Stuart

Sorry missed the second pic---herewith.

HangPC2 · 21st February 2008, 10:26 AM

Malay Cannon of the 17th & 18th Century

Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East.

The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding.

Sources : http://www.fortsiloso.com/museum/malay.htm

HangPC2 · 21st February 2008, 10:27 AM

Meriam Lantka (Lela Rentaka)

Paul Macdonald · 21st February 2008, 11:46 AM

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!!

Macdonald

Yannis · 21st February 2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Macdonald

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

Barbarossa had nothing to do with any silly Hollywood "history" or Caribbean at all. He was Mediteranean

Check this

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Macdonald

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!!

Macdonald

Its great to have you join in with us in our motley crew here Paul!!!

and I'm really looking forward to hear more on your discovery. It is clear you have a keen knack for tracking incredibly important historical swords.
Please tell us something soon OK....this kinda stuff keeps me up nights.

Yannis......you're quite right, Barbarossa was in the Meditteranean, and these 'Barbary Pirates' really got around. Remember that there was considerable trading in the Meditteranean , from the Maghreb to Spain, England, France, Italy and there were was at least one Armada galleon wrecked in Scotland. Spain and Scotland were well established allies, and Bonnie Prince Charlie, was born in Rome, as the Royal House of Stuart was Catholic, by religion linking Spain, Italy, France and the Holy Roman Empire of Eastern Europe.

I would not be the least but surprised with a Meditteranean sword found in Scotland, as I have seen an example of 'nimcha' also from the Maghreb being worn by an English noble painted in the 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 22nd February 2008, 12:53 AM

Considering the fleet size, wealth and overall achievements of Hayreddin Barbarossa, I cannot think of any other pirate in history that nearly comes close to him. Captain Morgan was promoted to governor of Jamaica? Well, Brabarossa had all of Algeria and Tunisia as a fiefdom. Considering that his fleet had more ships than his Catholic enemies combined, I would expect him to have possessed more than one sword, and I would expect his weapons to have been quite ostentatious and lavish in their decoration. I remember the portrait published in North's monograph on Islamic Arms, but I think this portrait is a century later than Barbarossa. I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

HangPC2 · 22nd February 2008, 03:01 AM

Malay Firearms

Rifled Musket & Pistol

# Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun)

# Bedil Istinggar (Malay Flintlock Musket)

# Tarkul

Malay Cannon

# Lela Rentaka

# Lela Rambang

# Tahan

# Lada Sicupak (Aceh Cannon)

# Nang Liu-Liu (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Patani (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Negeri (Patani Cannon)

# Badak Berendam (Kedah Cannon)

Brunei Darul Salam

Pemuras

Pemuras and Karga are royal regalia where the Pemuras is a large gun held against the right shoulder of the Panglima Raja wearing red ceremonial attire. While the Karga is the bullet carrier strapped on the left shoulder to the right side of the body.

Aceh Darul Salam

Pemuras

Makassar

Pemuras

Yannis · 22nd February 2008, 08:24 AM

"...Still in 1515 Oruç Reis sent precious gifts to the Ottoman Sultan Selim I who, in return, sent him two galleys and two swords embellished with diamonds...."
From Wikipedia

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

I think nimcha and any other North African style is later than his time. Straight swords were more in fashion then.

16th century contemporary painting, Louvre Museum, Paris.

And yes Jim, a sword of him could be anywhere in Europe. But it will be extremely difficult to connect it with the person.

fernando · 21st February 2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HangPC2

...Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East.

Are you sure ? Maybe not necessaily so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantaka

I am not an expert, but aren't those suspension dolphins on some of the pictured models of Spanish/Portuguese influence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HangPC2

The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding.

Lantakas had a very wide use, even becoming currency, the so called "cannon money" ... in the form of small pieces and even miniatures.
These were auctioned in 1989 in Lisbon; the triple barreled one for a fortune.
Fernando

fernando · 21st February 2008, 07:04 PM

May we come to the conclusion that piracy allways existed, as actually it may still exists ... i mean classic pirates, not the sophisticated version ones

. Weaponry used became therefore more and more modernized.
The event depicted in the attached picture just took place "the other day".
It appears that the China Sea, after the opium war, was boiling with shameless pirates, that assaulted civilian merchant junks, also imperial ones, even threatening westerners.
Some guy called Mah Chow Wong was one of the mightiest, leading various fleets and with enough wealth to bribe whomever necessary.
They wouldn't hesitate to atack territories under Portuguese protectorate, such as Macau. This gave place for local traders, fishermen and ship owners
to ask the mandarins escort for their boats and guard to their businesses by Portuguese forces. By around 1855 a total of almost 200 Portuguese lorchas, handled by mixed Chinese and Portuguese crews, were hunting these pirates. Weapons then used were rifles, swords ( sabres ) and axes.

kahnjar1 · 22nd February 2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

May we come to the conclusion that piracy always existed, as actually it may still exists ...

.................and this is how the Singapore Police deal with it! Note the deck mount!

21st February 2008, 07:04 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	May we come to the conclusion that piracy allways existed, as actually it may still exists ... i mean classic pirates, not the sophisticated version ones . Weaponry used became therefore more and more modernized. The event depicted in the attached picture just took place "the other day". It appears that the China Sea, after the opium war, was boiling with shameless pirates, that assaulted civilian merchant junks, also imperial ones, even threatening westerners. Some guy called Mah Chow Wong was one of the mightiest, leading various fleets and with enough wealth to bribe whomever necessary. They wouldn't hesitate to atack territories under Portuguese protectorate, such as Macau. This gave place for local traders, fishermen and ship owners to ask the mandarins escort for their boats and guard to their businesses by Portuguese forces. By around 1855 a total of almost 200 Portuguese lorchas, handled by mixed Chinese and Portuguese crews, were hunting these pirates. Weapons then used were rifles, swords ( sabres ) and axes. Attached Images

21st February 2008, 10:26 AM	#2
HangPC2 Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 66	Malay Cannon of the 17th & 18th Century Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East. The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding. Sources : http://www.fortsiloso.com/museum/malay.htm

21st February 2008, 10:27 AM	#3
HangPC2 Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 66	Meriam Lantka (Lela Rentaka)

21st February 2008, 11:46 AM	#4
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Arrrr lads! Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland. I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!! Macdonald

22nd February 2008, 12:53 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Considering the fleet size, wealth and overall achievements of Hayreddin Barbarossa, I cannot think of any other pirate in history that nearly comes close to him. Captain Morgan was promoted to governor of Jamaica? Well, Brabarossa had all of Algeria and Tunisia as a fiefdom. Considering that his fleet had more ships than his Catholic enemies combined, I would expect him to have possessed more than one sword, and I would expect his weapons to have been quite ostentatious and lavish in their decoration. I remember the portrait published in North's monograph on Islamic Arms, but I think this portrait is a century later than Barbarossa. I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

22nd February 2008, 03:01 AM	#8
HangPC2 Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 66	Malay Firearms Rifled Musket & Pistol # Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun) # Bedil Istinggar (Malay Flintlock Musket) # Tarkul Malay Cannon # Lela Rentaka # Lela Rambang # Tahan # Lada Sicupak (Aceh Cannon) # Nang Liu-Liu (Patani Cannon) # Seri Patani (Patani Cannon) # Seri Negeri (Patani Cannon) # Badak Berendam (Kedah Cannon) Brunei Darul Salam Pemuras Pemuras and Karga are royal regalia where the Pemuras is a large gun held against the right shoulder of the Panglima Raja wearing red ceremonial attire. While the Karga is the bullet carrier strapped on the left shoulder to the right side of the body. Aceh Darul Salam Pemuras Makassar Pemuras