Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

Norman McCormick · 18th February 2008, 04:31 PM

Hi,
I think the one thing that comes across from my two previous posts is that German blades were being imported commercially and/or brought in personally from the earliest phases of the style that is recognizable as Scottish. This would seem to reinforce the idea that the basket as a concept may indeed have its origins in Germany and that the idea was brought to Scotland by returning mercenaries and general commercial trading enterprise.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2008, 06:28 PM

Hi Paul,
I found the Loch Voil reference in a google reference while trying to locate data on Rob Roys actual sword. I will try to renavigate and get more detail to you (there was monumental volume of more popular and modern aspects of Scottish material

which though intriguing typically defies the more applicable historic data ). It seems most of the varying makers of the reproduction items apply a wide range of historical versions of many of the legendary tales).

I am unfortunately nearing the age where many of my stories of years ago weave into a bit of blur in recalling events that most probably have been embellished in my own mind

Combining this well established 'grandfather malady' ( I have 5 grandkids!) in stories being recounted to an imaginative and most creative romantic writer such as Sir Walter Scott, would certainly lend well to magnificent tales, but do little for actual history!
This sort of situation in well established here in the U.S. in the 'wild west' (where I have been travelling the past 6 months) in the hugely distorted stories of the gunfighters particularly. Much of this legend was created by the sensationalizing of writers....wonderful stories...but rather shallow in the true history in most cases. Despite this, in most cases, the figures themselves were outstanding in thier own right, often without the embellished stories.

Norman, very well done ! Thank you for adding the captioned detail so we can see the variations in these great examples noted. It does seem that the Scots returning from campaigns in regions from Northern Europe to Eastern Europe certainly would have brought back weapons such as the basket hilt dusagge, especially if , as earlier noted in my Sinclair post, they were often supplied with weapons by the principles who retained them. I just came across an example of 17th c. dusagge from Germany with the large panel in the hilt that carried pierced heart shapes, much as this shape appears in many basket hilt saltire plates. Since Germany was the predominant source for the blades on Scottish swords, we may presume that this established relationship resulted from the equally predominant association militarily with Germany.

All best regards,
Jim

Paul Macdonald · 19th February 2008, 12:02 AM

Aye, Solingen steel was widely regarded as the best in Europe at the time, and was up there with the best Spanish Toledo steel.

Most Scottish basket hilt blades carry some form of Solingen `running wolf` mark, as well as the famous "Andrea Ferrara" legend in many variants of spelling.

This realistically meant little more than a stamped sign of "quality", but you would really have had to known which forge or maker your blade came from to determine specific blade quality, rather than rely upon a generic name that any maker could (and often did) stamp into a blade.

German blades were bought in batches by Scottish swordmakers, who then made the hilts, grips, pommels and assembled all parts. The best hilt makers bought the best blades to complete their quality weapon. Just take a look at the outstanding quality of blades on any original Walter Allan hilt or those by any other reknowned maker.

Putting a poor blade on a quality hilt would equate to putting a 1litre diesel engine in a Ferrari. And good drivers just dinnae want that!

All the best,

Macdonald

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2008, 05:44 AM

Hi Paul,
Found the reference to Loch Vail in "Scotland Illustrated, in a series of views taken expressly for this work". by William Beattie M.D. (London, 1847, p.91). The author claims that the true incident took place at Rob Roys brothers home in Balquihidder. Apparantly Charles Stewart of Ardshiel was taking what amounts to a shortcut through the property, and ended up in conversation and subsequent quarrel with MacGregor. When a duel became imminent, both parties were furnished with 'an Andrea Ferrara'. When blood was drawn by the cut to the chin, the fight stopped and MacGregor stormed up the glen, and threw his broadsword into Loch Vail, nearly opposite Stronvarr House.

This is of course paraphrased text from item found in the google search.
In reviewing the text, it would seem that swords were provided to both combatants, and if the event did indeed occur, and Rob Roy threw a sword into the lake, it was not his own personal sword.

It does seem that there are numerous variations to the final contests of Rob Roy, as well as to his last days.

I hope this will at least resolve the Loch Vail sword event.

All the best,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 19th February 2008, 06:59 AM

Paul,

I thank you for your detailed reply, re. the discovery of the MacGragor sword, it is very fascinating, and could have ended in a tragic manner , had not the sword been rescued from the byre before it was too far gone.

I also thank you for answering the question re. the lining of the hilt. It makes sense to protect the hand from any ivading bars!

When you mentioned Sherrifmuir, I thought of the painting hanging in Elien-Donan, of the McRaes dancing on the rooftop the night before the battle.

Jim,
The story of the swords being given to the combatants seems to me a bit questionable. ...Would have thought that MacGregor would not have gone walking out without wearing his own.
My grandfather always used to say: "when it's fair, take a coat, When it's raining, please yourself.."
and I think this could be altered somewhat to cover the sword in those times.
(This is pure speculation on my part.)
Also for a swordsman to throw Any good blade into the loch seems to me rather unlikely but having said that, I wasn't there to see what happened!!
If I Had been, and he Did, I'd have marked the spot Very carefully!!

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2008, 07:34 PM

Hi Richard,
Very good observation, and actually in responding with the detail from that particular reference, it was placed in the sense that this account, is indeed quite questionable. It may well be remembered however, that although the official proscription of weapons did not take place until after the '45, at least not in the degree typically recorded, there was a great deal of tension in Scotland in the times between the '15 and the '45. MacGregor had been in a great deal of trouble, and being in his 60's in 1734, probably no longer regularly wore his weapons. Naturally, the veracity of this depends on which account or literature you are reading.

In reviewing this particular account, my suggestion was that MacGregor, probably would not have thrown a sword into the lake, even if it wasn't his own. The suggestion in the account that he did, was probably added to amplify his anger and dramatize his realization that he was no longer the stalwart warrior he had been.

Though I question the accuracy of this reference, it was included here to establish it as a matter of record in the discussion, and that is clearly disputable.

I completely agree, I'm extremely glad that Paul pursued the location of this most important sword and rescued it from further deterioration. It makes my heart glad to see these wonderful old warriors saved!!

All best regards,
Jim

18th February 2008, 04:31 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,639	Hi, I think the one thing that comes across from my two previous posts is that German blades were being imported commercially and/or brought in personally from the earliest phases of the style that is recognizable as Scottish. This would seem to reinforce the idea that the basket as a concept may indeed have its origins in Germany and that the idea was brought to Scotland by returning mercenaries and general commercial trading enterprise. Regards, Norman.

18th February 2008, 06:28 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,537	Hi Paul, I found the Loch Voil reference in a google reference while trying to locate data on Rob Roys actual sword. I will try to renavigate and get more detail to you (there was monumental volume of more popular and modern aspects of Scottish material which though intriguing typically defies the more applicable historic data ). It seems most of the varying makers of the reproduction items apply a wide range of historical versions of many of the legendary tales). I am unfortunately nearing the age where many of my stories of years ago weave into a bit of blur in recalling events that most probably have been embellished in my own mind Combining this well established 'grandfather malady' ( I have 5 grandkids!) in stories being recounted to an imaginative and most creative romantic writer such as Sir Walter Scott, would certainly lend well to magnificent tales, but do little for actual history! This sort of situation in well established here in the U.S. in the 'wild west' (where I have been travelling the past 6 months) in the hugely distorted stories of the gunfighters particularly. Much of this legend was created by the sensationalizing of writers....wonderful stories...but rather shallow in the true history in most cases. Despite this, in most cases, the figures themselves were outstanding in thier own right, often without the embellished stories. Norman, very well done ! Thank you for adding the captioned detail so we can see the variations in these great examples noted. It does seem that the Scots returning from campaigns in regions from Northern Europe to Eastern Europe certainly would have brought back weapons such as the basket hilt dusagge, especially if , as earlier noted in my Sinclair post, they were often supplied with weapons by the principles who retained them. I just came across an example of 17th c. dusagge from Germany with the large panel in the hilt that carried pierced heart shapes, much as this shape appears in many basket hilt saltire plates. Since Germany was the predominant source for the blades on Scottish swords, we may presume that this established relationship resulted from the equally predominant association militarily with Germany. All best regards, Jim

19th February 2008, 12:02 AM	#3
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Aye, Solingen steel was widely regarded as the best in Europe at the time, and was up there with the best Spanish Toledo steel. Most Scottish basket hilt blades carry some form of Solingen `running wolf` mark, as well as the famous "Andrea Ferrara" legend in many variants of spelling. This realistically meant little more than a stamped sign of "quality", but you would really have had to known which forge or maker your blade came from to determine specific blade quality, rather than rely upon a generic name that any maker could (and often did) stamp into a blade. German blades were bought in batches by Scottish swordmakers, who then made the hilts, grips, pommels and assembled all parts. The best hilt makers bought the best blades to complete their quality weapon. Just take a look at the outstanding quality of blades on any original Walter Allan hilt or those by any other reknowned maker. Putting a poor blade on a quality hilt would equate to putting a 1litre diesel engine in a Ferrari. And good drivers just dinnae want that! All the best, Macdonald

19th February 2008, 05:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,537	Hi Paul, Found the reference to Loch Vail in "Scotland Illustrated, in a series of views taken expressly for this work". by William Beattie M.D. (London, 1847, p.91). The author claims that the true incident took place at Rob Roys brothers home in Balquihidder. Apparantly Charles Stewart of Ardshiel was taking what amounts to a shortcut through the property, and ended up in conversation and subsequent quarrel with MacGregor. When a duel became imminent, both parties were furnished with 'an Andrea Ferrara'. When blood was drawn by the cut to the chin, the fight stopped and MacGregor stormed up the glen, and threw his broadsword into Loch Vail, nearly opposite Stronvarr House. This is of course paraphrased text from item found in the google search. In reviewing the text, it would seem that swords were provided to both combatants, and if the event did indeed occur, and Rob Roy threw a sword into the lake, it was not his own personal sword. It does seem that there are numerous variations to the final contests of Rob Roy, as well as to his last days. I hope this will at least resolve the Loch Vail sword event. All the best, Jim

19th February 2008, 06:59 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Paul, I thank you for your detailed reply, re. the discovery of the MacGragor sword, it is very fascinating, and could have ended in a tragic manner , had not the sword been rescued from the byre before it was too far gone. I also thank you for answering the question re. the lining of the hilt. It makes sense to protect the hand from any ivading bars! When you mentioned Sherrifmuir, I thought of the painting hanging in Elien-Donan, of the McRaes dancing on the rooftop the night before the battle. Jim, The story of the swords being given to the combatants seems to me a bit questionable. ...Would have thought that MacGregor would not have gone walking out without wearing his own. My grandfather always used to say: "when it's fair, take a coat, When it's raining, please yourself.." and I think this could be altered somewhat to cover the sword in those times. (This is pure speculation on my part.) Also for a swordsman to throw Any good blade into the loch seems to me rather unlikely but having said that, I wasn't there to see what happened!! If I Had been, and he Did, I'd have marked the spot Very carefully!! Richard.

19th February 2008, 07:34 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,537	Hi Richard, Very good observation, and actually in responding with the detail from that particular reference, it was placed in the sense that this account, is indeed quite questionable. It may well be remembered however, that although the official proscription of weapons did not take place until after the '45, at least not in the degree typically recorded, there was a great deal of tension in Scotland in the times between the '15 and the '45. MacGregor had been in a great deal of trouble, and being in his 60's in 1734, probably no longer regularly wore his weapons. Naturally, the veracity of this depends on which account or literature you are reading. In reviewing this particular account, my suggestion was that MacGregor, probably would not have thrown a sword into the lake, even if it wasn't his own. The suggestion in the account that he did, was probably added to amplify his anger and dramatize his realization that he was no longer the stalwart warrior he had been. Though I question the accuracy of this reference, it was included here to establish it as a matter of record in the discussion, and that is clearly disputable. I completely agree, I'm extremely glad that Paul pursued the location of this most important sword and rescued it from further deterioration. It makes my heart glad to see these wonderful old warriors saved!! All best regards, Jim