Origins of Gorda/Gurda

Kiziria · 17th February 2008, 10:38 PM

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

Rick · 19th February 2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiziria

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

Welcome to the forums Kiziria .

ariel · 19th February 2008, 09:29 PM

As usual, I was the most absentminded one...

Vakhtang, Gamarjoba and welcome to the Forum!
I thought your insight into "David Peruli" was very clever.
Just like the European/Persian swords came to the Caucasus, the Caucasian ones went to the entire Middle East. Somebody mentioned that a good proportion of the "Persian" blades in the Louvre are , in fact, Caucasian "forgeries". I guess the same might be true about Teheran National Museum as well

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2008, 10:01 PM

This was an interesting discussion, and its theme was essentially one of the purposes of the 'early trademarks thread'. While that thread seems to have pretty much run its course, and still stands holding important data for further research, I wanted to add some information I have just discovered , and wanted to place it on this thread.

Regardless of the local term applied, or the colloquial terms used by collectors, these opposed crescent or semi circles and thier origin remain somewhat a mystery. It is generally held that the marking, typically with lines or 'teeth' added, derives from early markings denoting quality on the blades of Genoa. The marks were duplicated in other regions and centers of blade makers with the quality connotation carried forward.

It is unclear whether the toothed half circles ever were those of a particular maker, and I am inclined to believe that they were likely guild marks that became used in various centers in Italy. With the blades exported to other trade centers, it is likely they were duplicated by local makers to suggest blade quality, much as this was done by native makers in North Africa, India and of course, the Caucusus.

In a documentary I was just viewing, there was mention of early Christian symbolism, and the fish becoming a symbol for Jesus. Apparantly early Christians, using stylized symbolism when meeting, would draw a line in the earth of a semi circle. The other, in response if himself a Christian, would also draw a semicircle with his foot, superimposed on the other, the two depicting a stylized fish.
I think that eventually these semi circles became important in symbolism disassociated with that particular meaning in degree, as disjoined elements, and eventually in Italy became trademarks for a guild of bladesmiths. It would be interesting if this could be substantiated, but does seem a plausible theory for the beginnings of the opposed semicircles. I believe that the paired crescent moons reflected these 'eyelash' or 'sickle marks' in their dual representation. Naturally duality is also very important in symbolism.

The anchor is also mentioned as an early Christian symbol, and as such, is discussed on the forementioned thread.

The eyelash or sickle marks became important in a number of blade centers, and commonly used in Styria, India, North Africa and the Caucusus with the purpose of suggesting blade quality. This just seemed interesting in looking at the possible beginnings of the marks.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 10th March 2008, 09:12 PM

The oldest variety of Gorda was called Gorda Assel.
Any brilliant ideas what "Assel" may mean, i.e. what European ( Italian, Styrian etc) word, name or locality could be transmogrified to " Assel"?

Jim McDougall · 11th March 2008, 02:35 PM

Interesting. Seems like a word from German dialects, but I would defer to the linguists and etymology experts. Perhaps more information on the source of data this earliest form of 'gurda' might add some context.
I would be inclined to think that 'assel' might be something colloquial from Styria, Passau or of course Solingen.

19th February 2008, 09:29 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As usual, I was the most absentminded one... Vakhtang, Gamarjoba and welcome to the Forum! I thought your insight into "David Peruli" was very clever. Just like the European/Persian swords came to the Caucasus, the Caucasian ones went to the entire Middle East. Somebody mentioned that a good proportion of the "Persian" blades in the Louvre are , in fact, Caucasian "forgeries". I guess the same might be true about Teheran National Museum as well Last edited by ariel; 20th February 2008 at 01:48 AM.

17th February 2008, 10:38 PM	#1
Kiziria Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 26	Hello gentlmen! Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion! To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories. I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more. It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

9th March 2008, 10:01 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,199	This was an interesting discussion, and its theme was essentially one of the purposes of the 'early trademarks thread'. While that thread seems to have pretty much run its course, and still stands holding important data for further research, I wanted to add some information I have just discovered , and wanted to place it on this thread. Regardless of the local term applied, or the colloquial terms used by collectors, these opposed crescent or semi circles and thier origin remain somewhat a mystery. It is generally held that the marking, typically with lines or 'teeth' added, derives from early markings denoting quality on the blades of Genoa. The marks were duplicated in other regions and centers of blade makers with the quality connotation carried forward. It is unclear whether the toothed half circles ever were those of a particular maker, and I am inclined to believe that they were likely guild marks that became used in various centers in Italy. With the blades exported to other trade centers, it is likely they were duplicated by local makers to suggest blade quality, much as this was done by native makers in North Africa, India and of course, the Caucusus. In a documentary I was just viewing, there was mention of early Christian symbolism, and the fish becoming a symbol for Jesus. Apparantly early Christians, using stylized symbolism when meeting, would draw a line in the earth of a semi circle. The other, in response if himself a Christian, would also draw a semicircle with his foot, superimposed on the other, the two depicting a stylized fish. I think that eventually these semi circles became important in symbolism disassociated with that particular meaning in degree, as disjoined elements, and eventually in Italy became trademarks for a guild of bladesmiths. It would be interesting if this could be substantiated, but does seem a plausible theory for the beginnings of the opposed semicircles. I believe that the paired crescent moons reflected these 'eyelash' or 'sickle marks' in their dual representation. Naturally duality is also very important in symbolism. The anchor is also mentioned as an early Christian symbol, and as such, is discussed on the forementioned thread. The eyelash or sickle marks became important in a number of blade centers, and commonly used in Styria, India, North Africa and the Caucusus with the purpose of suggesting blade quality. This just seemed interesting in looking at the possible beginnings of the marks. Best regards, Jim

10th March 2008, 09:12 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The oldest variety of Gorda was called Gorda Assel. Any brilliant ideas what "Assel" may mean, i.e. what European ( Italian, Styrian etc) word, name or locality could be transmogrified to " Assel"?

11th March 2008, 02:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,199	Interesting. Seems like a word from German dialects, but I would defer to the linguists and etymology experts. Perhaps more information on the source of data this earliest form of 'gurda' might add some context. I would be inclined to think that 'assel' might be something colloquial from Styria, Passau or of course Solingen.