Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

Norman McCormick · 13th February 2008, 07:47 PM

Hello,
From my name you've probably realised that if not from Scotland I'm certainly of Scots/Irish descent. I actually live in the West End of Glasgow not far, luckily for me, from Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum the place which as a child first gave me an interest in Arms and Armour. You will all also know that genuine Scottish antique arms are on the somewhat pricey side and as as result, unfortunately, I've not been able to bag a sword, dirk etc., yet !!! A number of months ago my son asked me if I had a sgian dubh he could borrow, I didn't, I had lost the last one years ago and hadn't bothered to replace it. I decided to do something I had been thinking about and make one. Whether a son was being nice to a dad or not after I gave him the sgian he asked me to make him a dirk as well. True to my roots, some would say, for both pieces I rummaged about in the garage for bits and pieces, wood from an old Victorian wardrobe, various bits of metal including a shovel handle and an angle bracket and luckily a bit from the middle of a badly damaged sword blade. The results, see photos, are not the the most decorative of pieces being plain and to the point, no pun intended, but are strong, sharp and pointy in all the right places. I don't know if this is the right place for modern pieces but I think, and hope, they conform to the spirit of Ethnographic weaponry.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2008, 04:41 AM

Hello Norman,
Thank you very much for posting, and especially for showing us these very beautifully done examples with indeed do reflect, in the beautifully written words of Paul MacDonald, the 'heart' put into these weapons. As you have noted, the true early examples of Scottish weapons are indeed hard to find, and typically quite high priced. While the objective here is to identify the forms and identifying characteristics of these early forms, your outstanding work certainly reflects the spirit imbued in these most important weapons.
Thank you again for sharing these!
All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 14th February 2008, 06:41 AM

Invariably, someone will mention the Italian schiavonna being a predecessor to the baskethilt, but I've always failed to see the true similarity. True, though, that the basket hilt wasn't in Scotland in the period pre-1600, making one wonder if there might be some connection. The claymores of William Wallace being the fancy in those earlier times. Still, I don't think that a surrounding hand guard/hilt was found only on schiavonna (the so-called Sinclaire saber comes to mind). What I do wish to know, however, is did these swords truly originate in Scotland or more in England. English baskets seem to have been around for the same time period and of the basic pattern. Likewise, I'm interested to learn more on the significance of the backsword (single-bladed, for cavalry??, horse-back?) vs the broadsword. Excellent to see this thread on what I deem to be an ethnographic sword (certainly the ones whose decoration/symbols and individual forging make them unique, not the latter Regiment models)...

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2008, 12:29 PM

Hi Mark,
Its great to see you in on this one! and the questions and notes you bring up are exactly those I hope we can resolve in some degree here. The old schiavona chestnut was contrived back in the Victorian collecting days by one of the sages of that time. I need to find the notes on who that was, as well as on the schiavona, which developed independantly and I believe later than the earliest basket hilts. The 'Sinclair' sabres were indeed similar in the surround basket guard form in variation, but as you note, the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work .

Good suggestion on the broadsword vs. the backsword, and if I am not mistaken the Scottish basket hilts were typically broadswords, as they were for fighting on foot. From what I understand of Scottish fencing, these double edged blades were most effective in the distinct method they were used (and I look forward to more on this from Mr. MacDonald, who is not only a professional restorer, but a Master of Arms).
The single blade backswords, as you note, were I believe cavalry weapons that came in about mid 18th century, and although many of these carried Scottish style basket hilts, they were actually English swords.

In any case, I would like to know more specifically on these questions as well, and I'm glad you brought them in here. Thanks very much Mark.

All the best,
Jim

Berkley · 14th February 2008, 01:12 PM

Jim McDougall wrote:

Quote:

the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work .

Thanks to the Internet, such things are much easier to find than in the days long ago when I was a struggling English major

Shakespeare wrote:

Quote:

Away, you cut-purse rascal! you filthy bung, away! By this
wine, I'll thrust my knife in your mouldy chaps, an you play
saucy cuttle with me. Away, you bottle-ale rascal! you
basket-hilt stale juggler, you! Since when, I pray you, sir?
God's light, with two points on your shoulder? Much!

-Henry IV, Part II; Act II, Scene 4.
Footnote to The Yale Shakespeare indicates the term is used literally: "referring to the basket-shaped steel hand-guard on the hilt of Pistol's sword".

Henk · 14th February 2008, 06:16 PM

A most interesting thread. I hope to learn a lot from it.
Norman, a lovely sgian dubh and dirk. Thank you for sharing.

I really hope to see more beautiful artifacts from Scotland.

13th February 2008, 07:47 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hello, From my name you've probably realised that if not from Scotland I'm certainly of Scots/Irish descent. I actually live in the West End of Glasgow not far, luckily for me, from Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum the place which as a child first gave me an interest in Arms and Armour. You will all also know that genuine Scottish antique arms are on the somewhat pricey side and as as result, unfortunately, I've not been able to bag a sword, dirk etc., yet !!! A number of months ago my son asked me if I had a sgian dubh he could borrow, I didn't, I had lost the last one years ago and hadn't bothered to replace it. I decided to do something I had been thinking about and make one. Whether a son was being nice to a dad or not after I gave him the sgian he asked me to make him a dirk as well. True to my roots, some would say, for both pieces I rummaged about in the garage for bits and pieces, wood from an old Victorian wardrobe, various bits of metal including a shovel handle and an angle bracket and luckily a bit from the middle of a badly damaged sword blade. The results, see photos, are not the the most decorative of pieces being plain and to the point, no pun intended, but are strong, sharp and pointy in all the right places. I don't know if this is the right place for modern pieces but I think, and hope, they conform to the spirit of Ethnographic weaponry. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

14th February 2008, 06:41 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Scottish Basket hilts Invariably, someone will mention the Italian schiavonna being a predecessor to the baskethilt, but I've always failed to see the true similarity. True, though, that the basket hilt wasn't in Scotland in the period pre-1600, making one wonder if there might be some connection. The claymores of William Wallace being the fancy in those earlier times. Still, I don't think that a surrounding hand guard/hilt was found only on schiavonna (the so-called Sinclaire saber comes to mind). What I do wish to know, however, is did these swords truly originate in Scotland or more in England. English baskets seem to have been around for the same time period and of the basic pattern. Likewise, I'm interested to learn more on the significance of the backsword (single-bladed, for cavalry??, horse-back?) vs the broadsword. Excellent to see this thread on what I deem to be an ethnographic sword (certainly the ones whose decoration/symbols and individual forging make them unique, not the latter Regiment models)...

14th February 2008, 04:41 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Hello Norman, Thank you very much for posting, and especially for showing us these very beautifully done examples with indeed do reflect, in the beautifully written words of Paul MacDonald, the 'heart' put into these weapons. As you have noted, the true early examples of Scottish weapons are indeed hard to find, and typically quite high priced. While the objective here is to identify the forms and identifying characteristics of these early forms, your outstanding work certainly reflects the spirit imbued in these most important weapons. Thank you again for sharing these! All the best, Jim

14th February 2008, 12:29 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Hi Mark, Its great to see you in on this one! and the questions and notes you bring up are exactly those I hope we can resolve in some degree here. The old schiavona chestnut was contrived back in the Victorian collecting days by one of the sages of that time. I need to find the notes on who that was, as well as on the schiavona, which developed independantly and I believe later than the earliest basket hilts. The 'Sinclair' sabres were indeed similar in the surround basket guard form in variation, but as you note, the basket hilt existed in England as well in these early times, and I believe the term exists in Shakespeares work . Good suggestion on the broadsword vs. the backsword, and if I am not mistaken the Scottish basket hilts were typically broadswords, as they were for fighting on foot. From what I understand of Scottish fencing, these double edged blades were most effective in the distinct method they were used (and I look forward to more on this from Mr. MacDonald, who is not only a professional restorer, but a Master of Arms). The single blade backswords, as you note, were I believe cavalry weapons that came in about mid 18th century, and although many of these carried Scottish style basket hilts, they were actually English swords. In any case, I would like to know more specifically on these questions as well, and I'm glad you brought them in here. Thanks very much Mark. All the best, Jim

14th February 2008, 06:16 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A most interesting thread. I hope to learn a lot from it. Norman, a lovely sgian dubh and dirk. Thank you for sharing. I really hope to see more beautiful artifacts from Scotland.