outside the square

David · 27th January 2008, 06:15 PM

Fearn, as Alan previously stated, i do not want to see this thread turn into a debate about the existence or origin of UFOs. I could very easily create a valid point-by-point argument to yours but i think that it would take us off the track of the purpose for this forum. Contact me via PM if you want to go there.

fearn · 27th January 2008, 07:49 PM

Hi David,

I agree about UFOs, and the only point I really care about in the previous post is people's willingness to say "I don't know" when confronted with something they don't understand, whether it's UFOs, spiritually endowed keris, or whatever.

The trap to avoid is becoming what Nassim Talib calls an "empty suit," an "expert" who sound wonderfully convincing in explaining things, but who actually doesn't know what he (or she) is talking about in any demonstrable way.

With regard to UFOs, none of us particularly knows what we're talking about, so the debate would go over better at a pub than over the internet (and David, if you're ever in the LA area, PM me and we can have that debate in an appropriate locale). With regard to keris, I know very little about them, so mostly I read the posts. I'm not certainly not an expert.

What I do hope is that the people who post here continue to fill their suits well.

F

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2008, 08:21 PM

I'm beginning to feel really sorry that I started this thread.

When I read the article I saw so much in it, put in such a clear and simple and straightforward way, that was directly able to be related to keris belief that I thought other people with a keris interest would immediately grasp the implications of the way in which the human mind and the human experience can create images and experiences that are totally real in a particular time and place, but removed from that time and place and put into either a cultural vacuum , or into a negatively charged culture, will yield either no image or experience, or a different image or experience.

My thought was that we would all benefit from a little bit of quite consideration of the workings of the human mind against the background of our own particular culture and society, and this consideration could lead to a better, or perhaps only different, understanding of much that is associated with keris culture.

Looks like I was wrong. I apologise for wasting everybody's time.

However, I too have seen UFO's, and I am prepared to agree with anybody that UFO's and aliens really do exist, or alternatively that they really do not exist, and I can mount a convincing argument either way. But its just not a subject that interests me very much.

Emanuel · 27th January 2008, 09:09 PM

Hello,

I enjoyed the spychological analyses in the article. I thought the idea about changes in the Earth's magnetic field making people see UFO's a bit odd. As a random effect it may also have made them see purple pigs dancing on the street, but that doesn't seem to happen.

The bit about the university professor seeing lights in the sky at night and immediately thinking about UFO's in an interesting one. I guess that just as he was conditionned to think "UFO", so the people in Solo were conditioned to think "Nyai Loro Kidul" when they saw a thunderbolt strike a spire of the kraton. They congregated at the kraton in a time of seeming danger, just as folks in Europe would go to the local church or cathedral. People are conditionned to do this in time of crisis or extreme anxiety.

The Solo man may KNOW that when he heard a rustling noise in the house and then he tripped and hit his head, that the keris did it out of anger or as a sign, obviously. The westerner guest will KNOW that the wind moved the beads in the window, the man got spooked and he tripped on the kids' toys, also obviously. Both are right and neither can prove the other wrong. The Texan businessman KNOWS that the UFO was a mile long travelling 300x faster than his Cessna - his experience, his scale, his perception and manner of thinking.

Certain dynamic lighting conditions could make a serpentine keris blade appear to be moving. A man's eyes show him the naga blade coming to life. How can someone that wasn't present or that witnessed different lighting conditions dissuade him from his belief?
If all of these keris cases are publicised as much as the UFO sightings are, then it's not hard to understand why an entire culture may believe in the power of keris. As obvious as it is to a Texan that UFO's exist (or don't exist), so it is to a Solonese man that his keris is (or is not) magical.

That's what I got from your comparison, Alan.
Regards,
Emanuel

David · 27th January 2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm beginning to feel really sorry that I started this thread.

When I read the article I saw so much in it, put in such a clear and simple and straightforward way, that was directly able to be related to keris belief that I thought other people with a keris interest would immediately grasp the implications of the way in which the human mind and the human experience can create images and experiences that are totally real in a particular time and place, but removed from that time and place and put into either a cultural vacuum , or into a negatively charged culture, will yield either no image or experience, or a different image or experience.

My thought was that we would all benefit from a little bit of quite consideration of the workings of the human mind against the background of our own particular culture and society, and this consideration could lead to a better, or perhaps only different, understanding of much that is associated with keris culture.

Looks like I was wrong. I apologise for wasting everybody's time.

However, I too have seen UFO's, and I am prepared to agree with anybody that UFO's and aliens really do exist, or alternatively that they really do not exist, and I can mount a convincing argument either way. But its just not a subject that interests me very much.

Alan, you have no need to apologize and i don't think you have wasted anyone's time. But i also think you are wrong if you think we just don't "get" what you were on about, even if the subject stills seems a bit too focussed on UFOs themselves. I think most of us at least understand what you were pointing to if we are not totally in agreement with your points.

fearn · 27th January 2008, 10:40 PM

While I generally avoid "me too" posts, Alan, I agree with David's points. It was worth posting the article.

For the purposes of this forum, perhaps we need a fuzzy image that could be an Unidentified Flying Keris to center the discussion properly. Or maybe not...

F

David · 27th January 2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

With regard to UFOs, none of us particularly knows what we're talking about, so the debate would go over better at a pub than over the internet (and David, if you're ever in the LA area, PM me and we can have that debate in an appropriate locale).

BTW Fearn, who's picking up the first round...

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 12:03 AM

Yes David, I did think that you, and the other people who have commented did not get quite the same message from this article that I got.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everybody understands exactly the same things from it, but because we are writing, rather than talking, the clarity of understanding is not shining through.

I have not yet, and probably will not, take a position on the content of this article. I have no intention of getting involved in trying to explain anything from my perspective, nor of trying to defend any point of view. The article is very clearly written, and I think it speaks for itself. All I really want is for other people to read it sufficiently diligently to understand the information that it carries. Then perhaps to apply that information to what we know of keris beliefs and the cultural and societal fabric of Jawa. Even the mention of the effects of magnetic stimulation and the noisy environment has a place in these considerations. It should be understood that noise in this context does not refer to noise measured in decibels, but rather noise measured in the intensity of feedback from population density and interaction, or possibly as a synonym of "distraction". What is clear is that the author is not talking about a heavy metal band.

The point of my initial post was to try to get people to apply information from an unrelated subject to the subject of keris culture and belief. The intent was to encourage abstract analytical thought. I had hoped that after the time it would take this process to reach fruition, perhaps we might have had a few original and/or interesting ideas floated on some matters to do with the keris and its culture and society.

For myself, I'm still digesting what I read in that article, and right at the moment I still need a lot more time before I can put some order into my ideas.Leads from the article also need time to be investigated.

fearn · 28th January 2008, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

BTW Fearn, who's picking up the first round...

Oh, I will, unless you're into expensive tequila or single malt. I'm a beer type.

Cheers,

F

27th January 2008, 06:15 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Fearn, as Alan previously stated, i do not want to see this thread turn into a debate about the existence or origin of UFOs. I could very easily create a valid point-by-point argument to yours but i think that it would take us off the track of the purpose for this forum. Contact me via PM if you want to go there.

27th January 2008, 07:49 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, I agree about UFOs, and the only point I really care about in the previous post is people's willingness to say "I don't know" when confronted with something they don't understand, whether it's UFOs, spiritually endowed keris, or whatever. The trap to avoid is becoming what Nassim Talib calls an "empty suit," an "expert" who sound wonderfully convincing in explaining things, but who actually doesn't know what he (or she) is talking about in any demonstrable way. With regard to UFOs, none of us particularly knows what we're talking about, so the debate would go over better at a pub than over the internet (and David, if you're ever in the LA area, PM me and we can have that debate in an appropriate locale). With regard to keris, I know very little about them, so mostly I read the posts. I'm not certainly not an expert. What I do hope is that the people who post here continue to fill their suits well. F

27th January 2008, 08:21 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	I'm beginning to feel really sorry that I started this thread. When I read the article I saw so much in it, put in such a clear and simple and straightforward way, that was directly able to be related to keris belief that I thought other people with a keris interest would immediately grasp the implications of the way in which the human mind and the human experience can create images and experiences that are totally real in a particular time and place, but removed from that time and place and put into either a cultural vacuum , or into a negatively charged culture, will yield either no image or experience, or a different image or experience. My thought was that we would all benefit from a little bit of quite consideration of the workings of the human mind against the background of our own particular culture and society, and this consideration could lead to a better, or perhaps only different, understanding of much that is associated with keris culture. Looks like I was wrong. I apologise for wasting everybody's time. However, I too have seen UFO's, and I am prepared to agree with anybody that UFO's and aliens really do exist, or alternatively that they really do not exist, and I can mount a convincing argument either way. But its just not a subject that interests me very much.

27th January 2008, 09:09 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I enjoyed the spychological analyses in the article. I thought the idea about changes in the Earth's magnetic field making people see UFO's a bit odd. As a random effect it may also have made them see purple pigs dancing on the street, but that doesn't seem to happen. The bit about the university professor seeing lights in the sky at night and immediately thinking about UFO's in an interesting one. I guess that just as he was conditionned to think "UFO", so the people in Solo were conditioned to think "Nyai Loro Kidul" when they saw a thunderbolt strike a spire of the kraton. They congregated at the kraton in a time of seeming danger, just as folks in Europe would go to the local church or cathedral. People are conditionned to do this in time of crisis or extreme anxiety. The Solo man may KNOW that when he heard a rustling noise in the house and then he tripped and hit his head, that the keris did it out of anger or as a sign, obviously. The westerner guest will KNOW that the wind moved the beads in the window, the man got spooked and he tripped on the kids' toys, also obviously. Both are right and neither can prove the other wrong. The Texan businessman KNOWS that the UFO was a mile long travelling 300x faster than his Cessna - his experience, his scale, his perception and manner of thinking. Certain dynamic lighting conditions could make a serpentine keris blade appear to be moving. A man's eyes show him the naga blade coming to life. How can someone that wasn't present or that witnessed different lighting conditions dissuade him from his belief? If all of these keris cases are publicised as much as the UFO sightings are, then it's not hard to understand why an entire culture may believe in the power of keris. As obvious as it is to a Texan that UFO's exist (or don't exist), so it is to a Solonese man that his keris is (or is not) magical. That's what I got from your comparison, Alan. Regards, Emanuel

27th January 2008, 10:40 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	While I generally avoid "me too" posts, Alan, I agree with David's points. It was worth posting the article. For the purposes of this forum, perhaps we need a fuzzy image that could be an Unidentified Flying Keris to center the discussion properly. Or maybe not... F

28th January 2008, 12:03 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Yes David, I did think that you, and the other people who have commented did not get quite the same message from this article that I got. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everybody understands exactly the same things from it, but because we are writing, rather than talking, the clarity of understanding is not shining through. I have not yet, and probably will not, take a position on the content of this article. I have no intention of getting involved in trying to explain anything from my perspective, nor of trying to defend any point of view. The article is very clearly written, and I think it speaks for itself. All I really want is for other people to read it sufficiently diligently to understand the information that it carries. Then perhaps to apply that information to what we know of keris beliefs and the cultural and societal fabric of Jawa. Even the mention of the effects of magnetic stimulation and the noisy environment has a place in these considerations. It should be understood that noise in this context does not refer to noise measured in decibels, but rather noise measured in the intensity of feedback from population density and interaction, or possibly as a synonym of "distraction". What is clear is that the author is not talking about a heavy metal band. The point of my initial post was to try to get people to apply information from an unrelated subject to the subject of keris culture and belief. The intent was to encourage abstract analytical thought. I had hoped that after the time it would take this process to reach fruition, perhaps we might have had a few original and/or interesting ideas floated on some matters to do with the keris and its culture and society. For myself, I'm still digesting what I read in that article, and right at the moment I still need a lot more time before I can put some order into my ideas.Leads from the article also need time to be investigated.