Mandara short sword / dagger???

Tim Simmons · 26th January 2008, 05:51 PM

It is interesting the spread of this hilt form. It may simply be a matter of ease of production form and function coupled with a matter of scarce materials, one imagines Africa is full of large game animals or cattle free for the taking. Bones and rags had a value in the UK you do not see rag and bone men these days. Clearly lavish things were made in Africa but I think we are not looking at a royal piece.
The piece I started a thread with may be for show. It could be a nasty weapon against an opponent armed with a traditional weapon. I do wonder how traditional local weapons were at that size as opposed to imports. Perhaps the one I have was only really practically possible with the new technology of the portable gas welding pressure tanks, so the problems of slag forming in a long blade could be overcome, untill the transition from locally smelted iron was replaced by imported steel to even the most remote centres of production. There must have been a time when the balance of labour to smelt locally and the cost of imported steel became very fine.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2008, 08:22 PM

I'm following what you're saying David, the shape of the pommel in the peaked form would be somewhat effective for 'pommeling', particularly if the pommel was fully shaped. The concept of bludgeoning with weapons which obviously are intended for other use is it seems often overlooked by many. As I often confess I am not too keen on the martial dynamics on weapons as I typically am lost in typology and symbolism.
It is well known of course with single shot firearms in the early days, that after the gun was fired that in the heat of combat it quickly became a bludgeoning weapon (the large knobs on Caucasian pistols, steel caps on early flintlock and percussion pistols, Davy Crockett at the Alamo

In close quarters where combatants were locked in closely in a melee, and there was little or no room to swing a sword, pommeling seems to have afforded an almost instinctive solution to at least momentarily stunning the opponent. These are simply my lay observations.

While it seems a bit optimistic, I am wondering if the pommel shape may have had influence from the medieval swords and blades that found thier way in some degree into regions of North Africa. It seems well established that the elements of the hilts of both kaskara and takouba reflect influences of these European hilts.As has been discussed in other threads, the hilts of the baselard is likely for the Moroccan s'boula ("Zanzibar sword") while the hilt of the koumyya is believed to have come from the Italian (Venetian or Genoese) cinqueda.
Many of these civilizations in Saharan and West African regions have origins into medieval times, and in many cases adopted European weaponry and armor among many other cultural influences. It has often been discussed in literature and history that the mounted warriors of Bornu resemble medieval knights with lances, mail, broadswords and so on. The trade deep into Mali early brought the world awareness of Timbuctou. I personally feel that there is distinct possibility that the pommel shape of medieval swords (I think the style I refer to is 'brazil nut' but my Oakeshott references are not handy) may be at least subliminally represented in these distinct shapes.

As always Tim, you make extremely valid points, and I always find your attention to the metallurgy and production processes completely fascinating. Again, another of my areas of limited understanding and knowledge is that of these fields, and I like the way you explain them so that a lay person such as myself can easily follow. It really does help understand these weapons better to know more on how they were made.

Luc, I always look forward to your input, and given the knowledge you clearly have on African weapons, always hope for detailed observations and opinions. I admit I'm greedy that way

! You and the others into African
weapons have some keen insights into them, and I want to know more.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 26th January 2008, 09:00 PM

Jim, thinking about welding in the 19th century. All iron/steel or part there of, ocean going ships in the latter part of the 19th century would need on board repairs so the portable pressurized gas equipment must have been much more available than one tends to imagine.
David I hope you do not think I have hijacked your thread but thought and questions and hopefully answers come in roung about ways. otherwise all would be too easy.

26th January 2008, 05:51 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	It is interesting the spread of this hilt form. It may simply be a matter of ease of production form and function coupled with a matter of scarce materials, one imagines Africa is full of large game animals or cattle free for the taking. Bones and rags had a value in the UK you do not see rag and bone men these days. Clearly lavish things were made in Africa but I think we are not looking at a royal piece. The piece I started a thread with may be for show. It could be a nasty weapon against an opponent armed with a traditional weapon. I do wonder how traditional local weapons were at that size as opposed to imports. Perhaps the one I have was only really practically possible with the new technology of the portable gas welding pressure tanks, so the problems of slag forming in a long blade could be overcome, untill the transition from locally smelted iron was replaced by imported steel to even the most remote centres of production. There must have been a time when the balance of labour to smelt locally and the cost of imported steel became very fine. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th January 2008 at 06:26 PM. Reason: another thought after diner

26th January 2008, 08:22 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I'm following what you're saying David, the shape of the pommel in the peaked form would be somewhat effective for 'pommeling', particularly if the pommel was fully shaped. The concept of bludgeoning with weapons which obviously are intended for other use is it seems often overlooked by many. As I often confess I am not too keen on the martial dynamics on weapons as I typically am lost in typology and symbolism. It is well known of course with single shot firearms in the early days, that after the gun was fired that in the heat of combat it quickly became a bludgeoning weapon (the large knobs on Caucasian pistols, steel caps on early flintlock and percussion pistols, Davy Crockett at the Alamo In close quarters where combatants were locked in closely in a melee, and there was little or no room to swing a sword, pommeling seems to have afforded an almost instinctive solution to at least momentarily stunning the opponent. These are simply my lay observations. While it seems a bit optimistic, I am wondering if the pommel shape may have had influence from the medieval swords and blades that found thier way in some degree into regions of North Africa. It seems well established that the elements of the hilts of both kaskara and takouba reflect influences of these European hilts.As has been discussed in other threads, the hilts of the baselard is likely for the Moroccan s'boula ("Zanzibar sword") while the hilt of the koumyya is believed to have come from the Italian (Venetian or Genoese) cinqueda. Many of these civilizations in Saharan and West African regions have origins into medieval times, and in many cases adopted European weaponry and armor among many other cultural influences. It has often been discussed in literature and history that the mounted warriors of Bornu resemble medieval knights with lances, mail, broadswords and so on. The trade deep into Mali early brought the world awareness of Timbuctou. I personally feel that there is distinct possibility that the pommel shape of medieval swords (I think the style I refer to is 'brazil nut' but my Oakeshott references are not handy) may be at least subliminally represented in these distinct shapes. As always Tim, you make extremely valid points, and I always find your attention to the metallurgy and production processes completely fascinating. Again, another of my areas of limited understanding and knowledge is that of these fields, and I like the way you explain them so that a lay person such as myself can easily follow. It really does help understand these weapons better to know more on how they were made. Luc, I always look forward to your input, and given the knowledge you clearly have on African weapons, always hope for detailed observations and opinions. I admit I'm greedy that way ! You and the others into African weapons have some keen insights into them, and I want to know more. All best regards, Jim

26th January 2008, 09:00 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Jim, thinking about welding in the 19th century. All iron/steel or part there of, ocean going ships in the latter part of the 19th century would need on board repairs so the portable pressurized gas equipment must have been much more available than one tends to imagine. David I hope you do not think I have hijacked your thread but thought and questions and hopefully answers come in roung about ways. otherwise all would be too easy.