Bullets and blades

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Tom, just went to take more pics but no better images. Can't say it's a bullet, but it appears to me to show conciderable impact. There is a halo of slight indention surrounding the damage that almost shows the direction of the bullet. The thin but significant fractured piece was clearly damaged after the blades surface was complete. I have one of the first digital cameras that doesn't even show the mega-pixel on it. Any suggestions of what type of pixel & lens is good. Ian, have to think the seller doesn't want to be traced to the action.

What if this: What if there were a cold shut inside the blade, and then later it got smacked with something small and hard-hitting (gotta admit a bullet is as good a candidate as I can come up with) on its surface at that particular area, knocking a hole out of the layer over the cold-shut, and further fracturing some more of it; possible I guess. The surface in the crater looks raggedy; not like bullet damage, really, so that and its overall jagged shape are what I'm trying to account for.

Rick · 19th March 2005, 12:26 AM

A shrapnel wound perhaps ?

Yannis · 19th March 2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Yannis, that's interesting, but what makes you think it's after-market? I could easily see it being a repair on a long welding flaw; a continuation of the very visible line that run out its ends; often so hard though, to tell damage from original flaws. Is it a plug or an overlay?

Tom,
It is a plug. I believe that is after market because I cant imagine a bladesmith selling this blade as new. If it was a fault so big (about 2.5 inches) an average bladesmith would throw this blade away.
I don’t know if it was a bullet or something else that done such damage to this blade. What I know is that the patch is excellent work.

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 01:07 PM

Actually the typical traditional smith never throws away a piece of steel or iron; he may entirely re-forge it, he may alloy it with other metal to dilute properties he doesn't like, he may use tiny scraps and filings to make rust slurry for patination, but he doesn't throw iron away; in fact he buys other people's broken iron junk to use for reforging. Now, a large cold shut in a blade's core could become exposed during grinding to finish the groove (though it was likely forged in to some extent), and at that point I can easily see an old time nomad smith looking down at this huge piece of steel, made and shaped with such difficulty, and perhaps even wanted in a hurry, and deciding to repair the piece instead of reforging it. Would such action be considered of the highest ethical or artistic standards? Perhaps not, though it is a saying among craftsmen that a real craftsman isn't one who doesn't screw up, but one who knows how to fix it when he does, and it's a sliding scale; you don't start over for just any tiny error; you have to draw a line somewhere; different people in different circumstances draw different lines. I've seen blades with cold-shuts exposed by the grinding, or some at the forged surface, where no repair, filling, or concealment of any kind was undertaken; the blade was made that way, sold that way, and went out into the world that way. It's not incredibly uncommon, actually.

Spunjer · 19th March 2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

I am no expert... here is my two cents worth. It appears the blade was backed by wood (like a 2X4) and shot with a rifle round (due to the kinetics and caliber, I think a 1911 would ding or shatter the blade before penetration... too big - too slow). It definitely appears to have been done deliberately (not due to combat... its too clean). I hope I did not spend more than my two cents.

bsmstar, i concur with you. i'm not much of a ballistic expert, but when i was in the army, i saw a demo where a kevlar helmet was shot with both a 45cal and an m-16. on the 45, the helmet was knocked off but barely made any damage, while the m-16, the helmet barely moved, but it went right thru (perfectly round hole on the entry, like the barong pictured above, while the back looked like shredded spaghetti...).

Yannis · 19th March 2005, 02:12 PM

Tom,
I agree with any word you wrote, except the “nomad smith”. This is 19th – early 20th century Caucasian shashka and there were well established smiths

I dint mean really throw to the garbage but throw back to the scrap material.

BSMStar · 21st March 2005, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

bsmstar, i concur with you. i'm not much of a ballistic expert, but when i was in the army, i saw a demo where a kevlar helmet was shot with both a 45cal and an m-16. on the 45, the helmet was knocked off but barely made any damage, while the m-16, the helmet barely moved, but it went right thru (perfectly round hole on the entry, like the barong pictured above, while the back looked like shredded spaghetti...).

Hi Spunjer,

I have had similar experiences...

At point of impact, there isn't any contour at entry (its not concave) so I have to assume that is was reinforced or backed. On exit, it shredded the steel (a lot of kinetics for clean entry- jagged exit on forged steel), not done by a slower pistol round. The hole is perpendicular, not that common of an event in a random world of combat... I would expect to see some angle to the entry (unless it was "lined up"), which made me take a closer look. But maybe I've been watching too much CSI.

19th March 2005, 12:26 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	A shrapnel wound perhaps ? Attached Images

19th March 2005, 01:07 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Actually the typical traditional smith never throws away a piece of steel or iron; he may entirely re-forge it, he may alloy it with other metal to dilute properties he doesn't like, he may use tiny scraps and filings to make rust slurry for patination, but he doesn't throw iron away; in fact he buys other people's broken iron junk to use for reforging. Now, a large cold shut in a blade's core could become exposed during grinding to finish the groove (though it was likely forged in to some extent), and at that point I can easily see an old time nomad smith looking down at this huge piece of steel, made and shaped with such difficulty, and perhaps even wanted in a hurry, and deciding to repair the piece instead of reforging it. Would such action be considered of the highest ethical or artistic standards? Perhaps not, though it is a saying among craftsmen that a real craftsman isn't one who doesn't screw up, but one who knows how to fix it when he does, and it's a sliding scale; you don't start over for just any tiny error; you have to draw a line somewhere; different people in different circumstances draw different lines. I've seen blades with cold-shuts exposed by the grinding, or some at the forged surface, where no repair, filling, or concealment of any kind was undertaken; the blade was made that way, sold that way, and went out into the world that way. It's not incredibly uncommon, actually.

19th March 2005, 02:12 PM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Tom, I agree with any word you wrote, except the “nomad smith”. This is 19th – early 20th century Caucasian shashka and there were well established smiths I dint mean really throw to the garbage but throw back to the scrap material.