genuine of fake?

Rich · 9th January 2008, 09:23 PM

I must concur with these folks observations. I've studied and collected
Japanese swords for nearly 30 years and have had the chance to study
and learn from many of the most knowledge folks in the field. Even the
Japanese experts will at times disagree as to the age, maker or school
of a sword. Lord knows I've made more than my share of screwups.
The entry of the Chinese fakers (some of which are EXTREMELY good)
complicates matters even more. I must get and see a dozen messages
a week from "newbies" (no offense intended in that term) who have
been taken and bought "genuine antique Japanese swords" that were
just plain Chinese fakes. What really hurts is that the fakers not only
defraud and injure the buyer, but the whole collecting community as
well. Many times a newbie, once burned, will never look at another
katana. Thus a potential collector, student of the sword, is lost forever.
I'm sure it's the same with most all fields of antiques.
All one can do is study, see as many good examples as possible and
listen to that little voice in the back of your head. When it says
too good to be true - it is.

Rich S

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Emanuel · 10th January 2008, 03:25 AM

The first keris I got was a piece of garbage. It looked like a gilded naga blade and I thought "man it must be my luck to stumble on this and all other collectors missed it" I was very sorely surprised when I got a piece of rusted, painted copper. So I showed it to folks here and one fine gentleman took the time to show me good keris and teach me about them. So I will echo what has been already said, look at good examples, talk to those who know about the blades you want, and read a LOT. Buy some decent old and new pieces with guidance from those more knowledgeable and learn to distinguish the important features that sets them apart.

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2008, 03:44 AM

Very well said and pertinant comments from all of the gentlemen who have posted here on this most valid topic, all of whom I personally consider the 'top guns' on these edged weapons

In my opinion the most important weapon a collector can own is knowledge, and as Alan has wisely noted, none of us ever stops learning.

All very best regards,
Jim

RSWORD · 10th January 2008, 04:21 AM

I have often said that a few buying mistakes along your collecting experience is simply tuition to be paid to our hobby. I don't know of a single long term collector that has not made a buying mistake of one form or another. While it can be discouraging and frustrating and annoying one has to look at it as a great lesson. I know of serious students of the hobby that will actually purchase a few of the really good reproductions to study against authentic examples. Also, over time, the more examples you can actually handle, both good and bad, will provide you with a base of knowledge to help you in your collecting endeavors.

asomotif · 10th January 2008, 02:49 PM

Hello Bart,

A complicated question.
Especially when Keris are concerned.
The newmade blades are sometimes so well made.

I often use the 'SEARCH' function on this website to look for earlier threads and see what was discussed and if pictures where posted for comparison.

Good luck,
Willem

Montino Bourbon · 10th January 2008, 03:46 PM

There's wonderful work being done today; look at the 'masters of fire' exhibit and you can see contemporary blades that are worthy of a king. Useable, beautiful, and also art that will appreciate with time. In a few hundred years, some of the blades made today will be classics.

So I have no argument with something totally modern if it's good.

A 'fake' is something else; it's usually something being passed for something else. A well-made modern sword being sold as an antique is a 'fake' antique, but may be an excellent sword. Then the question becomes one of knowing the real value of the piece, and experience, a lot of it, and handling as many pieces as you can personally helps, along with guidance from experienced collectors.

Again, it depends on what you want and what you expect. Art that you like now, and that really shows care and inspiration in the creation of it, will probably stand the test of time.

And yes, it's difficult to be sure when buying something from a picture and a description on ebay. That's why collecting is an adventure!

Henk · 10th January 2008, 07:10 PM

Bart,

All members who placed a reaction on your topic are right.

Alan's topic (A.G. Maisey) is one to learn by heart.
Emanuel's advice is one to remember. We are not allowed to discuss pending auctions, but talk with other knowledgeable forummembers or fellowcollectors in your neighbourhood about a piece you might consider to buy.

Sometimes hestiation is a missed change on a marvelous piece, but a missed change can turn out in a peaceful feeling in your wallet.

10th January 2008, 03:46 PM	#6
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	'New' and 'fake' There's wonderful work being done today; look at the 'masters of fire' exhibit and you can see contemporary blades that are worthy of a king. Useable, beautiful, and also art that will appreciate with time. In a few hundred years, some of the blades made today will be classics. So I have no argument with something totally modern if it's good. A 'fake' is something else; it's usually something being passed for something else. A well-made modern sword being sold as an antique is a 'fake' antique, but may be an excellent sword. Then the question becomes one of knowing the real value of the piece, and experience, a lot of it, and handling as many pieces as you can personally helps, along with guidance from experienced collectors. Again, it depends on what you want and what you expect. Art that you like now, and that really shows care and inspiration in the creation of it, will probably stand the test of time. And yes, it's difficult to be sure when buying something from a picture and a description on ebay. That's why collecting is an adventure!

9th January 2008, 09:23 PM	#1
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I must concur with these folks observations. I've studied and collected Japanese swords for nearly 30 years and have had the chance to study and learn from many of the most knowledge folks in the field. Even the Japanese experts will at times disagree as to the age, maker or school of a sword. Lord knows I've made more than my share of screwups. The entry of the Chinese fakers (some of which are EXTREMELY good) complicates matters even more. I must get and see a dozen messages a week from "newbies" (no offense intended in that term) who have been taken and bought "genuine antique Japanese swords" that were just plain Chinese fakes. What really hurts is that the fakers not only defraud and injure the buyer, but the whole collecting community as well. Many times a newbie, once burned, will never look at another katana. Thus a potential collector, student of the sword, is lost forever. I'm sure it's the same with most all fields of antiques. All one can do is study, see as many good examples as possible and listen to that little voice in the back of your head. When it says too good to be true - it is. Rich S The Japanese Sword Index http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

10th January 2008, 03:25 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The first keris I got was a piece of garbage. It looked like a gilded naga blade and I thought "man it must be my luck to stumble on this and all other collectors missed it" I was very sorely surprised when I got a piece of rusted, painted copper. So I showed it to folks here and one fine gentleman took the time to show me good keris and teach me about them. So I will echo what has been already said, look at good examples, talk to those who know about the blades you want, and read a LOT. Buy some decent old and new pieces with guidance from those more knowledgeable and learn to distinguish the important features that sets them apart. Regards, Emanuel

10th January 2008, 03:44 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Very well said and pertinant comments from all of the gentlemen who have posted here on this most valid topic, all of whom I personally consider the 'top guns' on these edged weapons In my opinion the most important weapon a collector can own is knowledge, and as Alan has wisely noted, none of us ever stops learning. All very best regards, Jim

10th January 2008, 04:21 AM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I have often said that a few buying mistakes along your collecting experience is simply tuition to be paid to our hobby. I don't know of a single long term collector that has not made a buying mistake of one form or another. While it can be discouraging and frustrating and annoying one has to look at it as a great lesson. I know of serious students of the hobby that will actually purchase a few of the really good reproductions to study against authentic examples. Also, over time, the more examples you can actually handle, both good and bad, will provide you with a base of knowledge to help you in your collecting endeavors.

10th January 2008, 02:49 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Bart, A complicated question. Especially when Keris are concerned. The newmade blades are sometimes so well made. I often use the 'SEARCH' function on this website to look for earlier threads and see what was discussed and if pictures where posted for comparison. Good luck, Willem

10th January 2008, 07:10 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Bart, All members who placed a reaction on your topic are right. Alan's topic (A.G. Maisey) is one to learn by heart. Emanuel's advice is one to remember. We are not allowed to discuss pending auctions, but talk with other knowledgeable forummembers or fellowcollectors in your neighbourhood about a piece you might consider to buy. Sometimes hestiation is a missed change on a marvelous piece, but a missed change can turn out in a peaceful feeling in your wallet.