Marking of weapons: Anthropologically and Sociologically

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2008, 07:39 PM

Thank you so much for those great illustrations Stuart. Again,these are deliberate and seem strategically placed at key locations on the blades, some as if to associate with makers marks seen on both European and native blades. In some cases of course, the markings duplicated might be arsenal marks but that seems to a more limited instance.

On the 6th illustration, the ovoid , but broken, mark on the blade of the dha reminds me again of a discussion investigating such marks on the blade of a Laotian 'kamoong'. It was relayed to me that a tribal elder of the Hmong had looked at photos of the markings and suggested that this open oval meant something to the effect, 'the sword will return to its owner'. Naturally, this third hand 'evidence' must be regarded with caution, but I thought it worthy of note.
In China, there were often characters on the blades that carried mottos or action names for the weapon itself. One early ring pommeled dadao that I researched had such characters that said 'kill demons'. The sword also carried the ba gwa or 'eight trigrams' (if memory serves) which suggested the swords association to the Eight Trigram Rebellion c.1815 in China.

The squiggle marks seem quite elusive, and they do appear often in groupings in linear pattern and motif on SE Asian blades. I have not heard any constructive observations on these, and hope to hear anything more on them.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2008, 08:22 PM

In discussion on the thread on psychological weapons, the subject of the bagpipes arose, and reminded me that the Scottish basket hilt sword and the often intricate designs in the hilts might serve as a good example of our topic here.

As is well known, the blades on the Scottish basket hilt swords of the 17th and 18th centuries were almost universally produced in Germany. The blades, when they arrived in Scotland, where then mounted locally with the now distinctly recognized basket hilts.

While our discussion concerns the applying of markings to weapons, I think the topic actually expands to the symbolism imbued in the design and motif of the weapon overall and its components.

Some years ago I became interested in the intricate piercings in the panels that are part of the construction of the Scottish basket hilt. One of the most consistant and intriguing designs was that of the heart, often appearing in systemic pattern in the panels. I had read in Whitelaw ("Scottish Arms Makers") that in many cases, the secret symbols of the Jacobites were added in the motif of the hilts of these swords. While I discovered some of the symbols did indeed appear, I could not find any Jacobite application that used the heart as a symbol.
Thinking that perhaps the symbolism for this often used motif in these hilts might be found elsewhere, I began more research. I recalled that the Scots were of course mercenaries, and often fought abroad, in many cases in Eastern Europe. I noticed that the heart shape often occurred in the arms and armor of Poland, and thought that possibly the Scots might have observed the heart used there and that I would pursue that course. Many ,if not most, of the Jacobites of course shared the Roman Catholic faith predominant in Poland or at least supported the Roman Catholic Stuarts. I contacted the well known and brilliant authority Professor Zygulsky, who thought my theory most interesting, but could not confirm nor support the idea. I contacted Claude Blair, who also thought the idea intriguing, but admitted there was little concrete material concerning the symbolism in these hilts. I contacted Dr. C. Mazansky, who was writing a book on basket hilt swords at the time, and he conceded that his efforts were confined to studying the typology of the swords.

The topic has remained with me for many years unresolved, and I thought this might be a good opportunity to bring it out here. I would very much appreciate the thoughts and observations of the readers and members concerning the significance of the heart design in these hilts.

With all best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 6th January 2008, 11:51 PM

the sacred heart is of course a widely used catholic symbol

these are often shown being pierced by a sword, so i'd expect a sword pierced by a heart would make sense.

piercing on basket:

kahnjar1 · 7th January 2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for those great illustrations Stuart. Again,these are deliberate and seem strategically placed at key locations on the blades, some as if to associate with makers marks seen on both European and native blades. In some cases of course, the markings duplicated might be arsenal marks but that seems to a more limited instance.

On the 6th illustration, the ovoid , but broken, mark on the blade of the dha reminds me again of a discussion investigating such marks on the blade of a Laotian 'kamoong'. It was relayed to me that a tribal elder of the Hmong had looked at photos of the markings and suggested that this open oval meant something to the effect, 'the sword will return to its owner'. Naturally, this third hand 'evidence' must be regarded with caution, but I thought it worthy of note.
In China, there were often characters on the blades that carried mottos or action names for the weapon itself. One early ring pommeled dadao that I researched had such characters that said 'kill demons'. The sword also carried the ba gwa or 'eight trigrams' (if memory serves) which suggested the swords association to the Eight Trigram Rebellion c.1815 in China.

The squiggle marks seem quite elusive, and they do appear often in groupings in linear pattern and motif on SE Asian blades. I have not heard any constructive observations on these, and hope to hear anything more on them.

All best regards,
Jim

Thanks Jim,
As a matter of interest, the mark you refer to as possibly being of Lao origin is on a Dha purported to be of Cambodian origin, so just across the border!
The "s" shaped marks appear quite often on Dha and I have always taken these as decoration rather than a makers mark.
This subject is getting huge!! Hopefully someone is collating all these marks for future reference??!!

Stuart

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2008, 02:57 AM

This subject is getting huge!! Hopefully someone is collating all these marks for future reference??!!

Stuart[/QUOTE]

Absolutely Stuart! That was exactly what I had in mind with this topic and the thread on trade markings. These topics often have come up in threads over the years and my goal was to establish sort of an 'in house' archives for us all to refer to. Many of the references that have been cited are quite hard to find, and often expensive when they are. Also the subject matter has seemed to always have room for deeper study, and who better than all of us here to accomplish that together!

Interesting note on that symbol appearing in Cambodia also. The squiggle marks I am pretty sure are motif, but what I am unclear on is what they represent. I have heard suggestions of water, rice paddies among others, but none with much basis to consider.

Kronckew, excellent examples! Thank you for posting those. It does seem quite clear that the heart shape has distinct Catholic symbolism, and the Jacobites were in support of the Catholic Stuart royal family. Of the described Jacobite symbols I have seen noted in varied items however, the heart has never been included. The only significant symbol noted was the white rose. The only other Scottish object I can recall with heart shapes was an antique Scottish chair I had.

Thank you guys!
All very best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 7th January 2008, 04:31 AM

I believe in one of the threads I linked to, PUFF provided information about the "S" squiggles on contemporary Thai swords. Apparantly, they are maker's marks.

kahnjar1 · 7th January 2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This subject is getting huge!! Hopefully someone is collating all these marks for future reference??!!

Stuart

Absolutely Stuart! That was exactly what I had in mind with this topic and the thread on trade markings. These topics often have come up in threads over the years and my goal was to establish sort of an 'in house' archives for us all to refer to. Many of the references that have been cited are quite hard to find, and often expensive when they are. Also the subject matter has seemed to always have room for deeper study, and who better than all of us here to accomplish that together!

Hi Jim,
Have PMd you
Stuart

Kronckew, excellent examples! Thank you for posting those. It does seem quite clear that the heart shape has distinct Catholic symbolism, and the Jacobites were in support of the Catholic Stuart royal family. Of the described Jacobite symbols I have seen noted in varied items however, the heart has never been included. The only significant symbol noted was the white rose. The only other Scottish object I can recall with heart shapes was an antique Scottish chair I had.

Thank you guys!
All very best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

fernando · 4th February 2008, 10:12 PM

It has been a while since i tried to find the origin of this procedure, that of piercing hearts in the guards of baskethilts and dirks. Through Norman McCormick, i found a source qualified on this area.
Here is the explanation given by Paul Macdonald, of Macdonald Armouries:

My thanks for your enquiry regarding the symbology of Scottish craftsmanship.
The heart has been used in Scottish craftsmanship for centuries. Jewellry incorporating hearts date from the early 16th century and it was used as a common decorative symbol on basket hilt swords, targes and dirks.
The basis for most artistic decorative work is that of repeated pattern or symbols. All cultures vary in what these specifically are in themselves. The Scottish Highland (as the Highlands generated specific cultural artistry now recognised as being generally `Scottish`) symbols commonly seen are the concentric circle (dating from Pictish times in stone carvings), Celtic knotwork in waveform (also indigenous to other Celtic nations as Spain, Ireland and Northern Italy), squared `key` form (as aldo seen in Roman culture) or zoomorphics (also seen in Scandanavian countries) and the heart.
The heart can be found in much Highland decorative metal and stonework. Rosslyn Chapel has a carving (from early C15th) of a man holding a heart. The legend is that this is the heart of Robert the Bruce, which as we know was carried as an iconic symbol to the Holy land on the crusades.
The Scots did not forget this great man and what symbolised his presence.
The symbol of the heart can also be found largely used in religious art from the C15th onwards. Christ holding a heart or legend of one of Christs wounds being to the heart are commonplace in Christian symbology. This is not the origin of this artistic expression however, as the heart symbol has been used in artistic decoration from as early as the 7th century BC.
To recognise the importance of this particular symbol to Highlanders, we have to look a bit deeper into the Highland culture and sense of identity. The Highlanders were not just a barbaric fighting nation as commonly imagined, but a race of warrior poets and artists, with an great sense of tradition, family, community and humanity.
The land shapes the Highlander, as he is early obliged to accept the naturally changing surrounding elements and forces of terrain and weather. This and the fact that the land is of natural form that allows for small communities to settle only, there being no large enough stable and flat ground mass to accomodate the building of anything like a city.
Highlanders are as a result direct in communication and relation with any individuals they meet, not closed minded or full of self importance, but naturally open in mind and heart.
The heart is the centre of the self, that from which we really feel and hear Life from if we listen closely enough. Gaelic song and poem are full of references and subject of Heart and what this is. It is literally a central symbol of Highland culture and identity. A reminder of what is important in Life, and where we are from. It is where answers can be found.
Heart is what Highlanders listen to, abide by, and fight with.
I hope that the above goes some way towards your own answer.
Yours Very Truly,
Macdonald

6th January 2008, 11:51 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the sacred heart is of course a widely used catholic symbol these are often shown being pierced by a sword, so i'd expect a sword pierced by a heart would make sense. piercing on basket: Last edited by kronckew; 7th January 2008 at 12:11 AM.

4th February 2008, 10:12 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	hearts pierced in baskethilts It has been a while since i tried to find the origin of this procedure, that of piercing hearts in the guards of baskethilts and dirks. Through Norman McCormick, i found a source qualified on this area. Here is the explanation given by Paul Macdonald, of Macdonald Armouries: My thanks for your enquiry regarding the symbology of Scottish craftsmanship. The heart has been used in Scottish craftsmanship for centuries. Jewellry incorporating hearts date from the early 16th century and it was used as a common decorative symbol on basket hilt swords, targes and dirks. The basis for most artistic decorative work is that of repeated pattern or symbols. All cultures vary in what these specifically are in themselves. The Scottish Highland (as the Highlands generated specific cultural artistry now recognised as being generally `Scottish`) symbols commonly seen are the concentric circle (dating from Pictish times in stone carvings), Celtic knotwork in waveform (also indigenous to other Celtic nations as Spain, Ireland and Northern Italy), squared `key` form (as aldo seen in Roman culture) or zoomorphics (also seen in Scandanavian countries) and the heart. The heart can be found in much Highland decorative metal and stonework. Rosslyn Chapel has a carving (from early C15th) of a man holding a heart. The legend is that this is the heart of Robert the Bruce, which as we know was carried as an iconic symbol to the Holy land on the crusades. The Scots did not forget this great man and what symbolised his presence. The symbol of the heart can also be found largely used in religious art from the C15th onwards. Christ holding a heart or legend of one of Christs wounds being to the heart are commonplace in Christian symbology. This is not the origin of this artistic expression however, as the heart symbol has been used in artistic decoration from as early as the 7th century BC. To recognise the importance of this particular symbol to Highlanders, we have to look a bit deeper into the Highland culture and sense of identity. The Highlanders were not just a barbaric fighting nation as commonly imagined, but a race of warrior poets and artists, with an great sense of tradition, family, community and humanity. The land shapes the Highlander, as he is early obliged to accept the naturally changing surrounding elements and forces of terrain and weather. This and the fact that the land is of natural form that allows for small communities to settle only, there being no large enough stable and flat ground mass to accomodate the building of anything like a city. Highlanders are as a result direct in communication and relation with any individuals they meet, not closed minded or full of self importance, but naturally open in mind and heart. The heart is the centre of the self, that from which we really feel and hear Life from if we listen closely enough. Gaelic song and poem are full of references and subject of Heart and what this is. It is literally a central symbol of Highland culture and identity. A reminder of what is important in Life, and where we are from. It is where answers can be found. Heart is what Highlanders listen to, abide by, and fight with. I hope that the above goes some way towards your own answer. Yours Very Truly, Macdonald

6th January 2008, 07:39 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much for those great illustrations Stuart. Again,these are deliberate and seem strategically placed at key locations on the blades, some as if to associate with makers marks seen on both European and native blades. In some cases of course, the markings duplicated might be arsenal marks but that seems to a more limited instance. On the 6th illustration, the ovoid , but broken, mark on the blade of the dha reminds me again of a discussion investigating such marks on the blade of a Laotian 'kamoong'. It was relayed to me that a tribal elder of the Hmong had looked at photos of the markings and suggested that this open oval meant something to the effect, 'the sword will return to its owner'. Naturally, this third hand 'evidence' must be regarded with caution, but I thought it worthy of note. In China, there were often characters on the blades that carried mottos or action names for the weapon itself. One early ring pommeled dadao that I researched had such characters that said 'kill demons'. The sword also carried the ba gwa or 'eight trigrams' (if memory serves) which suggested the swords association to the Eight Trigram Rebellion c.1815 in China. The squiggle marks seem quite elusive, and they do appear often in groupings in linear pattern and motif on SE Asian blades. I have not heard any constructive observations on these, and hope to hear anything more on them. All best regards, Jim

6th January 2008, 08:22 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In discussion on the thread on psychological weapons, the subject of the bagpipes arose, and reminded me that the Scottish basket hilt sword and the often intricate designs in the hilts might serve as a good example of our topic here. As is well known, the blades on the Scottish basket hilt swords of the 17th and 18th centuries were almost universally produced in Germany. The blades, when they arrived in Scotland, where then mounted locally with the now distinctly recognized basket hilts. While our discussion concerns the applying of markings to weapons, I think the topic actually expands to the symbolism imbued in the design and motif of the weapon overall and its components. Some years ago I became interested in the intricate piercings in the panels that are part of the construction of the Scottish basket hilt. One of the most consistant and intriguing designs was that of the heart, often appearing in systemic pattern in the panels. I had read in Whitelaw ("Scottish Arms Makers") that in many cases, the secret symbols of the Jacobites were added in the motif of the hilts of these swords. While I discovered some of the symbols did indeed appear, I could not find any Jacobite application that used the heart as a symbol. Thinking that perhaps the symbolism for this often used motif in these hilts might be found elsewhere, I began more research. I recalled that the Scots were of course mercenaries, and often fought abroad, in many cases in Eastern Europe. I noticed that the heart shape often occurred in the arms and armor of Poland, and thought that possibly the Scots might have observed the heart used there and that I would pursue that course. Many ,if not most, of the Jacobites of course shared the Roman Catholic faith predominant in Poland or at least supported the Roman Catholic Stuarts. I contacted the well known and brilliant authority Professor Zygulsky, who thought my theory most interesting, but could not confirm nor support the idea. I contacted Claude Blair, who also thought the idea intriguing, but admitted there was little concrete material concerning the symbolism in these hilts. I contacted Dr. C. Mazansky, who was writing a book on basket hilt swords at the time, and he conceded that his efforts were confined to studying the typology of the swords. The topic has remained with me for many years unresolved, and I thought this might be a good opportunity to bring it out here. I would very much appreciate the thoughts and observations of the readers and members concerning the significance of the heart design in these hilts. With all best regards, Jim

7th January 2008, 02:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This subject is getting huge!! Hopefully someone is collating all these marks for future reference??!! Stuart[/QUOTE] Absolutely Stuart! That was exactly what I had in mind with this topic and the thread on trade markings. These topics often have come up in threads over the years and my goal was to establish sort of an 'in house' archives for us all to refer to. Many of the references that have been cited are quite hard to find, and often expensive when they are. Also the subject matter has seemed to always have room for deeper study, and who better than all of us here to accomplish that together! Interesting note on that symbol appearing in Cambodia also. The squiggle marks I am pretty sure are motif, but what I am unclear on is what they represent. I have heard suggestions of water, rice paddies among others, but none with much basis to consider. Kronckew, excellent examples! Thank you for posting those. It does seem quite clear that the heart shape has distinct Catholic symbolism, and the Jacobites were in support of the Catholic Stuart royal family. Of the described Jacobite symbols I have seen noted in varied items however, the heart has never been included. The only significant symbol noted was the white rose. The only other Scottish object I can recall with heart shapes was an antique Scottish chair I had. Thank you guys! All very best regards, Jim

7th January 2008, 04:31 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I believe in one of the threads I linked to, PUFF provided information about the "S" squiggles on contemporary Thai swords. Apparantly, they are maker's marks.