It was a VERY Merry Xmas!

CourseEight · 26th December 2007, 10:22 PM

Thought I'd share my excitement!

katana · 26th December 2007, 10:44 PM

Santa must have thought you were a VERY good boy

Congrats

Regards David

ariel · 27th December 2007, 12:56 AM

So, it was YOU who outsniped me on BS Yataghan?
Well, buddy, enjoy! Hope you get even more fun before the New Year!

CourseEight · 27th December 2007, 02:48 AM

Quote:

So, it was YOU who outsniped me on BS Yataghan?

My mom, apparently.

I absolutely LOVE it!

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2007, 03:42 AM

Course Eight, looks like you was really good this year! Congrats! Very nice grouping.
Any thoughts, observations, identifications on these from anyone?

TVV · 27th December 2007, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

My mom, apparently.

I absolutely LOVE it!

Your mom got me as well, although I should not really blame anyone for falling well short of the winning bid. You sure need to come up with something VERY special next Mother's Day.
Excellent acquisitions, hope to see more detailed pictures, particularly of the Laz bichagi.

Ferguson · 27th December 2007, 11:33 AM

Congrats! You've got a VERY nice mom.

Need a brother?

Steve

CourseEight · 28th December 2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Course Eight, looks like you was really good this year! Congrats! Very nice grouping. Any thoughts, observations, identifications on these from anyone?

Thanks! I'll give it a whirl, as the forum once again has proven an invaluable resource for information.

The Black Sea Yataghan/Laz Bichaq on top (apparently bid upon by several forum members) has pretty much been covered elsewhere, particularly this thread. Interestingly, mine seems to be quite a bit like the picture posted from Tirri's book in the aforementioned thread, albeit in worse condition. It is also mentioned in this thread that Tirri's contraversial attribution was based on only his particular weapon, which may have been tied to N. Africa even if the origins of the weapon form itself do not. Have I interpretted the discussion correctly? Is this sort of form/decoration "rarer" amonst Black Sea Yataghans than other types? More pictures are forthcoming on this one; lots of holiday to clean up, to make space for my light box...

Next up is the bichwa, which has a lot of similarities to this one on Oriental-Arms:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1425

The title says 18th c., the discription 19th c., so, late 18th early 19th I suppose? Some differences are that the handle of mine is more of the "knuckle-duster" form and less of the "ring" shape. The scabbard on mine is red velvet over wood with blue velvet at the tips, rather than leather over wood. And of course instead of two elephants, mine has a dog and a bird. I've been reading through my Elgood, but cannot find anything about the Hindu symbolism of dogs. I'd love to hear more about this from the experts! Will post more pictures of this one too.

The Ankus is, apparently, this one:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2483

So that's pretty much all there is to say there. The bells certainly do sound nice.

And the throwing nice looks to be Matakam/North East Nigeria/North Cameroon, as discussed in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Throwing

Quote:

Your mom got me as well, although I should not really blame anyone for falling well short of the winning bid. You sure need to come up with something VERY special next Mother's Day.

You know, I'm forbidden to look for ethnographic stuff on ebay over $100 after Mid-November, so truth is I have no idea what she was up to. But don't worry, I got her something nice for Xmas too!

--Radleigh

ariel · 28th December 2007, 06:44 AM

That's what I call LOVE!

CourseEight · 30th December 2007, 07:08 PM

More pics of the Black Sea Yataghan:

CourseEight · 30th December 2007, 07:11 PM

More pics of the bichwa:

CourseEight · 1st January 2008, 10:20 PM

So, in part inspired by the interesting discussion about the use of dog symbology in the "AssadUllah Cartouche/Stamp" thread I've been looking around for various uses of the dog in Hinduism and on various Indo-Persian weapons, in an effort to better understand its usage on my bichwa. Unfortuantely I haven't been able to come up with much. Sarama is the only named dog I can find in Hindu mythology, and was apparently Indra's watchdog. Also mentioned are that dogs are associated with Yama, god of death, whcih is interesting because Elgood mentions that the loop shape of the bichwa handle is representative of a noose, one of the weapons of Vishnu but also the manner in which Yama snares souls. The wikipedia entry on Sarama says that "in later Hinduism, the dog became one of the most degraded animal," although I haven't found anything specific on that point. None of this directly explains the presence of the bird.

As an entirely alternative explanation of the decoration, it should be noted that the bird is attached through the handle via a pin, which has loosened and allows the bird to rotate. So if I turn the bird around, it could be that the dog is chasing the bird and what we have could be some sort of hunting scene. Its not often, though, that there are dogs involved in those scenes. The only ones I've found were on 19th C Qajar pieces:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2484
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=557

I think the bird is supposed to face away from the dog, since the oxidation under the bird (from where it would have been hard to polish) is darker on the dog side, and it would be harder to polish under the tail. Myself, I'm voting for the "hunting" interpretation, no doubt with some British influence; here is the cover of a British book with very similar styling of a bird and a dog.

26th December 2007, 10:22 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	It was a VERY Merry Xmas! Thought I'd share my excitement! Attached Images

30th December 2007, 07:08 PM	#10
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Black Sea Yataghan Pics More pics of the Black Sea Yataghan: Attached Images

30th December 2007, 07:11 PM	#11
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Pics of the Bichwa More pics of the bichwa: Attached Images

26th December 2007, 10:44 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Santa must have thought you were a VERY good boy Congrats Regards David

27th December 2007, 12:56 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, it was YOU who outsniped me on BS Yataghan? Well, buddy, enjoy! Hope you get even more fun before the New Year!

27th December 2007, 03:42 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Course Eight, looks like you was really good this year! Congrats! Very nice grouping. Any thoughts, observations, identifications on these from anyone?

27th December 2007, 11:33 AM	#7
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Congrats! You've got a VERY nice mom. Need a brother? Steve

28th December 2007, 06:44 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That's what I call LOVE!

1st January 2008, 10:20 PM	#12
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	So, in part inspired by the interesting discussion about the use of dog symbology in the "AssadUllah Cartouche/Stamp" thread I've been looking around for various uses of the dog in Hinduism and on various Indo-Persian weapons, in an effort to better understand its usage on my bichwa. Unfortuantely I haven't been able to come up with much. Sarama is the only named dog I can find in Hindu mythology, and was apparently Indra's watchdog. Also mentioned are that dogs are associated with Yama, god of death, whcih is interesting because Elgood mentions that the loop shape of the bichwa handle is representative of a noose, one of the weapons of Vishnu but also the manner in which Yama snares souls. The wikipedia entry on Sarama says that "in later Hinduism, the dog became one of the most degraded animal," although I haven't found anything specific on that point. None of this directly explains the presence of the bird. As an entirely alternative explanation of the decoration, it should be noted that the bird is attached through the handle via a pin, which has loosened and allows the bird to rotate. So if I turn the bird around, it could be that the dog is chasing the bird and what we have could be some sort of hunting scene. Its not often, though, that there are dogs involved in those scenes. The only ones I've found were on 19th C Qajar pieces: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2484 http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=557 I think the bird is supposed to face away from the dog, since the oxidation under the bird (from where it would have been hard to polish) is darker on the dog side, and it would be harder to polish under the tail. Myself, I'm voting for the "hunting" interpretation, no doubt with some British influence; here is the cover of a British book with very similar styling of a bird and a dog.