Interesting Tulwar with faint engraved design....Any Ideas ?

katana · 19th December 2007, 09:04 PM

Hi Ariel,
I haven't seen this type of quillion before, or this type of decoration to the blade (the faint engraving). But because of the 'scallop' looking quillion ends and the shortish blade, I wondered whether this could be some sort of 'Naval Issue'.

The patina of the blade suggests 18thC to early 19thC and seems well made, not certain (due to patination) but looks to have laminations.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2007, 11:49 PM

Hi David,
Most unusual! and as always you have great observations. The scalloped shell is something I cannot say I've seen, and though I dont know of specifically instituted navy in India that would have issued weapons as such, it surely seems plausible (maybe this should be on the pirate weapons thread

I agree with your thoughts on probable period though, it does seem late 18th c.
More research !!!
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 20th December 2007, 12:25 AM

The eyelah mark looks very weak.The semicircles remind me of Thai Dhas.
Even the contour of the handle does not look Indian.
I have a strange feeling that it was not made in India. SE Asia?????
I know, I know, it DOES sound silly...

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2007, 04:12 AM

Actually Ariel, your thoughts might not be so silly. There is something very unusual about this hilt, the quillons and langet notwithstanding. The hilt seems heavy and disproportionate, and those circles with small prongs around do seem like markings like this on Cham (I believe) dhas and weapons. the arrangement of opposed semicircles and strategically placed 'solar' symbols at either end recall the often seen 'sickle' marks.
While this weapon is of the period suggested and of tulwar form, it does seem atypical overall.
The shell motif David mentioned was indeed a good suggestion, but I am wondering if there might be some auspicious Buddhist symbolism here rather than maritime use? Would the scallop shell be symbolically significant much as the conch shell is as one of the auspicious symbols?

best regards,
Jim

katana · 20th December 2007, 04:05 PM

Searching on the internet I found these two images of the same sword....looks very similar to mine. Unfortunately there were no references or information about it. So ...at least there is more than one.

Below are two pictures from Artzi's site the first are markings on an Afghani Poulwar , the second (which has identical 'circle' markings as my own) is Indian and on the blade of a Tulwar.

As the Piso Podang has Indian influences I've been looking for a possible link with Tulwars and SEA......so far ...nothing

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2007, 12:26 AM

Excellent note on the piso podang David! That indeed is an example of the tulwar in SEA regions, but this one is so profoundly different. As always, it seems I have seen something like this before, and as you have shown there are obviously more of them.
The toothed circle markings in the other examples you posted seem to be grouped in arrangements approximating markings seen on many European blades.. the grid of these are like some seen on 'firangi' blades, the others seem to reflect again the key numeric three.

While this toothed circle does of course appear on dhas as I have noted, this by no means suggests the mark is exclusive there as we know simple geometric marks appear in many cultural spheres with different meanings.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 21st December 2007, 03:50 AM

I do not recall ever seeing a Tulwar with up-turned quillons

20th December 2007, 04:05 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Searching on the internet I found these two images of the same sword....looks very similar to mine. Unfortunately there were no references or information about it. So ...at least there is more than one. Below are two pictures from Artzi's site the first are markings on an Afghani Poulwar , the second (which has identical 'circle' markings as my own) is Indian and on the blade of a Tulwar. As the Piso Podang has Indian influences I've been looking for a possible link with Tulwars and SEA......so far ...nothing Regards David Attached Images

19th December 2007, 09:04 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Ariel, I haven't seen this type of quillion before, or this type of decoration to the blade (the faint engraving). But because of the 'scallop' looking quillion ends and the shortish blade, I wondered whether this could be some sort of 'Naval Issue'. The patina of the blade suggests 18thC to early 19thC and seems well made, not certain (due to patination) but looks to have laminations. Regards David

19th December 2007, 11:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi David, Most unusual! and as always you have great observations. The scalloped shell is something I cannot say I've seen, and though I dont know of specifically instituted navy in India that would have issued weapons as such, it surely seems plausible (maybe this should be on the pirate weapons thread I agree with your thoughts on probable period though, it does seem late 18th c. More research !!! All the best, Jim

20th December 2007, 12:25 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The eyelah mark looks very weak.The semicircles remind me of Thai Dhas. Even the contour of the handle does not look Indian. I have a strange feeling that it was not made in India. SE Asia????? I know, I know, it DOES sound silly...

20th December 2007, 04:12 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Actually Ariel, your thoughts might not be so silly. There is something very unusual about this hilt, the quillons and langet notwithstanding. The hilt seems heavy and disproportionate, and those circles with small prongs around do seem like markings like this on Cham (I believe) dhas and weapons. the arrangement of opposed semicircles and strategically placed 'solar' symbols at either end recall the often seen 'sickle' marks. While this weapon is of the period suggested and of tulwar form, it does seem atypical overall. The shell motif David mentioned was indeed a good suggestion, but I am wondering if there might be some auspicious Buddhist symbolism here rather than maritime use? Would the scallop shell be symbolically significant much as the conch shell is as one of the auspicious symbols? best regards, Jim

21st December 2007, 12:26 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent note on the piso podang David! That indeed is an example of the tulwar in SEA regions, but this one is so profoundly different. As always, it seems I have seen something like this before, and as you have shown there are obviously more of them. The toothed circle markings in the other examples you posted seem to be grouped in arrangements approximating markings seen on many European blades.. the grid of these are like some seen on 'firangi' blades, the others seem to reflect again the key numeric three. While this toothed circle does of course appear on dhas as I have noted, this by no means suggests the mark is exclusive there as we know simple geometric marks appear in many cultural spheres with different meanings. All the best, Jim

21st December 2007, 03:50 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not recall ever seeing a Tulwar with up-turned quillons