Dr. Ann, Dr. Ann

wolviex · 17th March 2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

What can be found to determine age, & what & how much would be lost in order to do so (like a small part of the tang or chip from the inside of a hilt? Is it possible to do ascertain pieces made without European iron? Thank You.

Let me join to this interesting discussion for a while. According to the quote above I'll tell you a story from a Polish museum. It was probably in the 50's (I know it from the tales also, too young to remember

), when some metallurgist came to the museum and offered to examin excavated 11th century sword. Director, a very known Polish weapon scholar in those days, wasn't convinced about safety and legitimacy of such experience. But this metallurgist attained his goal promising to learn everything about this sword, mativated such examine as very important for Polish science, metallurgy etc. Then, with the director's permission in one hand and file in another, he just cut off 4 cm of the tang

After few weeks he send to the musuem a piece of paper with few notes of chemistry symbols with percents - something what should every classical scholar (this director was one of them) bring to heart attack. Nothing more. No age, no nothing - just inexplicable percents. To be honest I don't know what happened to this piece of paper with such important science results - I can imagine that director tread it into the ground

. Now this sword, with ugly cut tang, is visible on our arms and armour exhibition - for someones as a specific warning

Nowadays, as far as I know, there are non-invasive methods.

About the rust - I heard from reliable sources about fakers which are meaking very beautiful, old, deep corrosion

- so be careful

Best regards

Jens Nordlunde · 17th March 2005, 09:28 PM

Long time ago I heard that cowdung should be very good when aging blades/tangs.

Jens

Bill · 17th March 2005, 09:44 PM

Well my thoughts were that when an old hilt is removed there is usually conciderable rust that is going to be removed any way, nice if it could have purpose.

Andrew · 17th March 2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Long time ago I heard that cowdung should be very good when aging blades/tangs.

Jens

How ironic.

Federico · 18th March 2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Let me join to this interesting discussion for a while. According to the quote above I'll tell you a story from a Polish museum. It was probably in the 50's (I know it from the tales also, too young to remember

), when some metallurgist came to the museum and offered to examin excavated 11th century sword. Director, a very known Polish weapon scholar in those days, wasn't convinced about safety and legitimacy of such experience. But this metallurgist attained his goal promising to learn everything about this sword, mativated such examine as very important for Polish science, metallurgy etc. Then, with the director's permission in one hand and file in another, he just cut off 4 cm of the tang

After few weeks he send to the musuem a piece of paper with few notes of chemistry symbols with percents - something what should every classical scholar (this director was one of them) bring to heart attack. Nothing more. No age, no nothing - just inexplicable percents. To be honest I don't know what happened to this piece of paper with such important science results - I can imagine that director tread it into the ground

. Now this sword, with ugly cut tang, is visible on our arms and armour exhibition - for someones as a specific warning

Nowadays, as far as I know, there are non-invasive methods.

About the rust - I heard from reliable sources about fakers which are meaking very beautiful, old, deep corrosion

- so be careful

Best regards

I got to admit, this story made me teary eyed.

Rich · 18th March 2005, 11:37 AM

"In regards to using corrosion to date a blade, it might be worth mentioning,
that it is the accepted method of dating Japanese blades through the
examination of the corrosion on the tang. I think a lot of study as been put
into this over the years and one can start seeing trends in the depth of
corrosion, color of corrosion, etc. and match this to dated tangs to get an
"eye" for dating an unsigned blade. Barring new technology that can
somehow date the metal of the blade, studying a blades tang seems to be an
accepted method of dating. Thoughts?"

----------

The type of rust, extent of rust and color of rust is
used as an aid in dating Japanese swords. However, everyone
realizes that it can be "faked". In Nihonto circles it is
bad to ever clean the tang of a sword since it is used
in dating. The basic guidelines (just that - guidelines)
are in order of recent to oldest: red rust, brown rust,
rough black rust, smooth black rust. Again though I must
mention, as has been said, it is just one aspect of dating
the sword and is not considered absolute by any means.
Other things considered are shape, prominence of hada (grain
in the folding process), style of hamon (temperline), among
others. None of these are absolute and any or all can be
replicated by modern smiths. That why we have shinsa
(judging) by a group of Japanese experts and even then
errors are sometimes made.

Interesting thread. I wish there was a simple, fool proof
method of dating blades of any culture. It would sure
simplify things. How about all the "bronze age" fakes on
the market?

Rich S
------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD alchemyst@yahoo.com

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
------------------------------------------------------------

Ann Feuerbach · 18th March 2005, 03:01 PM

Thanks Bill for the link to that article...it is great and a lot to take in. I think for the time being, stylistic studies, along with technological studies, will be the only way for us to date iron for a while. The radiocarbon does show promise. What I feel is needed is more research/database on styles etc... Then it would be easier to compare authenitic objects with questionable ones.

17th March 2005, 09:28 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Long time ago I heard that cowdung should be very good when aging blades/tangs. Jens

17th March 2005, 09:44 PM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Well my thoughts were that when an old hilt is removed there is usually conciderable rust that is going to be removed any way, nice if it could have purpose.

18th March 2005, 11:37 AM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	"In regards to using corrosion to date a blade, it might be worth mentioning, that it is the accepted method of dating Japanese blades through the examination of the corrosion on the tang. I think a lot of study as been put into this over the years and one can start seeing trends in the depth of corrosion, color of corrosion, etc. and match this to dated tangs to get an "eye" for dating an unsigned blade. Barring new technology that can somehow date the metal of the blade, studying a blades tang seems to be an accepted method of dating. Thoughts?" ---------- The type of rust, extent of rust and color of rust is used as an aid in dating Japanese swords. However, everyone realizes that it can be "faked". In Nihonto circles it is bad to ever clean the tang of a sword since it is used in dating. The basic guidelines (just that - guidelines) are in order of recent to oldest: red rust, brown rust, rough black rust, smooth black rust. Again though I must mention, as has been said, it is just one aspect of dating the sword and is not considered absolute by any means. Other things considered are shape, prominence of hada (grain in the folding process), style of hamon (temperline), among others. None of these are absolute and any or all can be replicated by modern smiths. That why we have shinsa (judging) by a group of Japanese experts and even then errors are sometimes made. Interesting thread. I wish there was a simple, fool proof method of dating blades of any culture. It would sure simplify things. How about all the "bronze age" fakes on the market? Rich S ------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Stein, PhD alchemyst@yahoo.com The Japanese Sword Index http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm ------------------------------------------------------------

18th March 2005, 03:01 PM	#7
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks Bill for the link to that article...it is great and a lot to take in. I think for the time being, stylistic studies, along with technological studies, will be the only way for us to date iron for a while. The radiocarbon does show promise. What I feel is needed is more research/database on styles etc... Then it would be easier to compare authenitic objects with questionable ones.