ID need of man with spear

katana · 18th December 2007, 08:40 PM

The spear head is similar to PNG types .... (assuming it is wooden, difficult to tell from the photo)

David

Nonoy Tan · 19th December 2007, 11:21 AM

This type of scarification is found in many parts of the globe e.g. Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc. I believe that each peoples or "tribe" would have a unique set of designs. I did not find the same design in the PNG website, so more clues are needed.

The spear design is new to me and may or may not be an original design from peoples inhabiting the Southern Philippines, or Sumatra, etc. - before the influence of the moros took hold (I am guessing).

Does anybody have samples of 19th century Sumatra spears? How about 19th century PNG spears?

Bill · 19th December 2007, 11:41 AM

Don't forget Negrito from Thailand but I'd guess Southern Philippines because of the "Moro". The spear seems "Naga" like but not a match for anything I've seen.

Nonoy Tan · 19th December 2007, 02:18 PM

Yes, the negritos of Andaman Islands are also candidates. The negritos are allegedly the original inhabitants of these places mentioned before the arrival of the malay and indonesian "races."

Here are two photos that I found. One photo is that of a negrito (not known from which part of the Philippines) with an armband which to me has a resemblance to the one worn by the mystery "Moro" (?) man. The photo is not sharp though.

Another photo (also not sharp) shows the scarification of a Negrito (from Northeast Luzon).

Any more leads?

Pukka Bundook · 20th December 2007, 02:59 PM

I have a good friend, who in the 70's spent some time amongst the Asmat people of PNG.
He has some spears he brought home that (to me ) look identical to this one. From his photos, this man looks to be from the same race, too.
The only thing is that on my friends photos, the men on ceremonial occasions wore a curled shell ornament through their noses. these were taken out and I gather not worn at all times.

Very good picture, BTW.

Richard.

PS, on looking at the picture with the arm-band, I recall similar arm-bands on my friends pictures. They were made with feathers, often in bright colours.

I could ask him to send some pictures, as he does have complete sets of costumes and weaponry belonging to these people.

Tim Simmons · 20th December 2007, 05:30 PM

In my opinion this fellow is nothing to do with Papuans. He looks very much a Negrito which is a rather catch all word. These two chaps in this picture taken in Malaya, could be the brothers of the spear holding man. The spear would fit the Malayan jungle people. As has been noted the spread of these people is in South East Asia/ Australasia. Papuans are Melanesians in the sience of these things quite different I believe.

These links have some bearing on the matter. I would still say the chap in question is not Melanesian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Australoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid
A bit like calling Naga's Indian?

fearn · 20th December 2007, 08:11 PM

Hi Tim,

I tend to agree, but remember that in the western Papua area and Indonesian islands to the west of Irian, there is a lot of intermixing between Papuan and Indonesian ethno-types, same as on Luzon.

I tend to discount the Andamanese, because they are either Stone Age (and uncontacted) or were assimilated most of a century ago.

19th December 2007, 02:18 PM	#4
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Yes, the negritos of Andaman Islands are also candidates. The negritos are allegedly the original inhabitants of these places mentioned before the arrival of the malay and indonesian "races." Here are two photos that I found. One photo is that of a negrito (not known from which part of the Philippines) with an armband which to me has a resemblance to the one worn by the mystery "Moro" (?) man. The photo is not sharp though. Another photo (also not sharp) shows the scarification of a Negrito (from Northeast Luzon). Any more leads? Attached Images

20th December 2007, 02:59 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I have a good friend, who in the 70's spent some time amongst the Asmat people of PNG. He has some spears he brought home that (to me ) look identical to this one. From his photos, this man looks to be from the same race, too. The only thing is that on my friends photos, the men on ceremonial occasions wore a curled shell ornament through their noses. these were taken out and I gather not worn at all times. Very good picture, BTW. Richard. PS, on looking at the picture with the arm-band, I recall similar arm-bands on my friends pictures. They were made with feathers, often in bright colours. I could ask him to send some pictures, as he does have complete sets of costumes and weaponry belonging to these people. Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 20th December 2007 at 03:11 PM.

20th December 2007, 05:30 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	In my opinion this fellow is nothing to do with Papuans. He looks very much a Negrito which is a rather catch all word. These two chaps in this picture taken in Malaya, could be the brothers of the spear holding man. The spear would fit the Malayan jungle people. As has been noted the spread of these people is in South East Asia/ Australasia. Papuans are Melanesians in the sience of these things quite different I believe. These links have some bearing on the matter. I would still say the chap in question is not Melanesian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Australoid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australoid A bit like calling Naga's Indian? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th December 2007 at 06:23 PM.

18th December 2007, 08:40 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The spear head is similar to PNG types .... (assuming it is wooden, difficult to tell from the photo) David

19th December 2007, 11:21 AM	#2
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	This type of scarification is found in many parts of the globe e.g. Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc. I believe that each peoples or "tribe" would have a unique set of designs. I did not find the same design in the PNG website, so more clues are needed. The spear design is new to me and may or may not be an original design from peoples inhabiting the Southern Philippines, or Sumatra, etc. - before the influence of the moros took hold (I am guessing). Does anybody have samples of 19th century Sumatra spears? How about 19th century PNG spears?

19th December 2007, 11:41 AM	#3
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Don't forget Negrito from Thailand but I'd guess Southern Philippines because of the "Moro". The spear seems "Naga" like but not a match for anything I've seen.

20th December 2007, 08:11 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I tend to agree, but remember that in the western Papua area and Indonesian islands to the west of Irian, there is a lot of intermixing between Papuan and Indonesian ethno-types, same as on Luzon. I tend to discount the Andamanese, because they are either Stone Age (and uncontacted) or were assimilated most of a century ago.