Karabela for comment

TVV · 13th December 2007, 01:15 AM

Jeff,

Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well.

Regards,

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 03:43 AM

Teodor, thank you for such kind words, and I am always impressed as well at Jeff's on target observations and quick command of references!
It is indeed interesting what you note on the term nimcha, as described by Elgood which is apparantly in Arabic a reference to a small or short sword. It seems this is yet another of the 'collectors glossary' which began to evolve with early transliterations and misnomers from narrators, travelers and adventurers. The 'nimcha' term is of course most commonly associated with the multi-quilloned sabres of Morocco and in collectors parlance also tied to Barbary Pirates et al. These are actually termed locally sa'if, which is the generic Arabic term for sword.

Very best regards,
Jim

TVV · 14th December 2007, 05:39 PM

Here are some better pictures of the guard.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2007, 05:01 AM

Teodor,
Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it!
When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 24th December 2007, 09:52 PM

Thanks for the too kind words

As Jim has expertly noted the hilt form is Ottoman and of course covers a large geographic area. Here are a couple more Ottoman hilts from Swords and Hilt Weapons
Thanks for the better shots of the hilt, It is always great to collect as much data as we can.

All the Best
Jeff

ariel · 25th December 2007, 03:03 AM

Well, gentlemen, we are entering a new topic: the origin of the Karabela handle. Persian? Turkish? Arabian? ( I doubt the latter, but just for the sake of completeness).
We were led to believe that the "eagle head" handle was invented by Shah Abbas himself who got the idea observing the silhouettes of the windows at the shrine in Karbala ( I am not mentioning the author of this hypothesis, but it was published in a very big book).
The fact (as I understand it) that the shrine was not even built at that time presents a slight inconvenience...( to me, not to the author).
The popularity of these handles in Balkan countries and in Hungary suggests to me that the original source was Turkish. Also, karabelas were mentioned in Polish books and depicted in Polish sources well before Poles established friendly relations with the Persians, but well into their long and bloody wars with the Turks. The Ottoman origin of the" eaglehead" handle also explains its popularity in Arabia.
Did it come from the locality named Karabel ( Near Izmir?)

TVV · 25th December 2007, 05:19 AM

The question about the origin of the karabela hilt is a hard one, from what I have read so far, perhaps just as hard as determining what the name "karabela" originates from - is it "black curse" in Turkish, Kerbala, or Karabel near Izmir?
I wonder whether it would be best to first see where this hilt form gained popularity, such as Poland, Arabia, Balkans, etc. and then start eliminating certain regions from the list of potential candidates?

14th December 2007, 05:39 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,719	Here are some better pictures of the guard. Attached Images

24th December 2007, 09:52 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks for the too kind words As Jim has expertly noted the hilt form is Ottoman and of course covers a large geographic area. Here are a couple more Ottoman hilts from Swords and Hilt Weapons Thanks for the better shots of the hilt, It is always great to collect as much data as we can. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

13th December 2007, 01:15 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,719	Jeff, Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well. Regards, Teodor

13th December 2007, 03:43 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	Teodor, thank you for such kind words, and I am always impressed as well at Jeff's on target observations and quick command of references! It is indeed interesting what you note on the term nimcha, as described by Elgood which is apparantly in Arabic a reference to a small or short sword. It seems this is yet another of the 'collectors glossary' which began to evolve with early transliterations and misnomers from narrators, travelers and adventurers. The 'nimcha' term is of course most commonly associated with the multi-quilloned sabres of Morocco and in collectors parlance also tied to Barbary Pirates et al. These are actually termed locally sa'if, which is the generic Arabic term for sword. Very best regards, Jim

16th December 2007, 05:01 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	Teodor, Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it! When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre. All best regards, Jim

25th December 2007, 03:03 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, gentlemen, we are entering a new topic: the origin of the Karabela handle. Persian? Turkish? Arabian? ( I doubt the latter, but just for the sake of completeness). We were led to believe that the "eagle head" handle was invented by Shah Abbas himself who got the idea observing the silhouettes of the windows at the shrine in Karbala ( I am not mentioning the author of this hypothesis, but it was published in a very big book). The fact (as I understand it) that the shrine was not even built at that time presents a slight inconvenience...( to me, not to the author). The popularity of these handles in Balkan countries and in Hungary suggests to me that the original source was Turkish. Also, karabelas were mentioned in Polish books and depicted in Polish sources well before Poles established friendly relations with the Persians, but well into their long and bloody wars with the Turks. The Ottoman origin of the" eaglehead" handle also explains its popularity in Arabia. Did it come from the locality named Karabel ( Near Izmir?)

25th December 2007, 05:19 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,719	The question about the origin of the karabela hilt is a hard one, from what I have read so far, perhaps just as hard as determining what the name "karabela" originates from - is it "black curse" in Turkish, Kerbala, or Karabel near Izmir? I wonder whether it would be best to first see where this hilt form gained popularity, such as Poland, Arabia, Balkans, etc. and then start eliminating certain regions from the list of potential candidates?