Karabela for comment

TVV · 12th December 2007, 06:05 AM

Thanks Jim, I will be sure to check the "Early Makers' Marks" thread.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2007, 06:28 AM

Thank you Teodor, the reason I brought that up is that this is exactly the sort of questions on markings on blades that prompted starting the thread. While this is of course most likely a European sabre, blades of this type occur often in various ethnographic swords, and this is a great example.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 13th December 2007, 12:32 AM

Great piece! I think this is most likely Arabian in origin. The Karabella hilts like this were well used. I will post one from Pg10 Of Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia described as a Arabian nimsha with wooden hilt. The nail head decoration is well documented on Arabian swords and daggers. Is there any way to get a better picture of the guard? The blade most likely is as Jim describes, and European. I will see if I can find any reference to the marks.

Again a great piece (I want it

)!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 01:06 AM

Hi Jeff,
You're right, the pommel on this is very un-karabela like and in rethinking it seems like the characteristic Ottoman hilt with a peak. The karabela hilt is multilobed and of course is a highly stylized zoomorphic that seems to be a bird head of some sort. I think of those silver hilt pallasches that Elgood also shows in that book, which are noted as 18th century and probably from Hadramaut . Many Arabian regions were under Ottoman suzerainty, so the presence of Ottoman forms seems well placed.

Thanks for coming in on this Jeff! I think those are the usual X markings that show up with ANDREA FERARA etc. at either end, but again think of those numeric sequences.

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 13th December 2007, 01:15 AM

Jeff,

Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well.

Regards,

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 03:43 AM

Teodor, thank you for such kind words, and I am always impressed as well at Jeff's on target observations and quick command of references!
It is indeed interesting what you note on the term nimcha, as described by Elgood which is apparantly in Arabic a reference to a small or short sword. It seems this is yet another of the 'collectors glossary' which began to evolve with early transliterations and misnomers from narrators, travelers and adventurers. The 'nimcha' term is of course most commonly associated with the multi-quilloned sabres of Morocco and in collectors parlance also tied to Barbary Pirates et al. These are actually termed locally sa'if, which is the generic Arabic term for sword.

Very best regards,
Jim

TVV · 14th December 2007, 05:39 PM

Here are some better pictures of the guard.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2007, 05:01 AM

Teodor,
Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it!
When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre.

All best regards,
Jim

13th December 2007, 12:32 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great piece! I think this is most likely Arabian in origin. The Karabella hilts like this were well used. I will post one from Pg10 Of Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia described as a Arabian nimsha with wooden hilt. The nail head decoration is well documented on Arabian swords and daggers. Is there any way to get a better picture of the guard? The blade most likely is as Jim describes, and European. I will see if I can find any reference to the marks. Again a great piece (I want it )! Jeff Attached Images

14th December 2007, 05:39 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Here are some better pictures of the guard. Attached Images

12th December 2007, 06:05 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Thanks Jim, I will be sure to check the "Early Makers' Marks" thread.

12th December 2007, 06:28 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you Teodor, the reason I brought that up is that this is exactly the sort of questions on markings on blades that prompted starting the thread. While this is of course most likely a European sabre, blades of this type occur often in various ethnographic swords, and this is a great example. All best regards, Jim

13th December 2007, 01:06 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Jeff, You're right, the pommel on this is very un-karabela like and in rethinking it seems like the characteristic Ottoman hilt with a peak. The karabela hilt is multilobed and of course is a highly stylized zoomorphic that seems to be a bird head of some sort. I think of those silver hilt pallasches that Elgood also shows in that book, which are noted as 18th century and probably from Hadramaut . Many Arabian regions were under Ottoman suzerainty, so the presence of Ottoman forms seems well placed. Thanks for coming in on this Jeff! I think those are the usual X markings that show up with ANDREA FERARA etc. at either end, but again think of those numeric sequences. All the best, Jim

13th December 2007, 01:15 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Jeff, Thanks for your comments - if it was not for you and Jim, what would we do? I will try to get a better picture of the guard. I have Elgood's book and if I recall correctly he stated that nimsha literally means "half" and therefore is best applied to naval cutlasses. This one seems to be a bit too long for this, but I compeletely agree that the hilt shape resembles the hilt pictured in Elgood's book, and your point about the nail decoration is very convincing as well. Regards, Teodor

13th December 2007, 03:43 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Teodor, thank you for such kind words, and I am always impressed as well at Jeff's on target observations and quick command of references! It is indeed interesting what you note on the term nimcha, as described by Elgood which is apparantly in Arabic a reference to a small or short sword. It seems this is yet another of the 'collectors glossary' which began to evolve with early transliterations and misnomers from narrators, travelers and adventurers. The 'nimcha' term is of course most commonly associated with the multi-quilloned sabres of Morocco and in collectors parlance also tied to Barbary Pirates et al. These are actually termed locally sa'if, which is the generic Arabic term for sword. Very best regards, Jim

16th December 2007, 05:01 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Teodor, Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it! When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre. All best regards, Jim