A sociological and anthropological question

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

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Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices. I unfortunately am not yet fully familiar with all the features of this great forum.
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Antonio, I believe I can add a poll to this thread, but I haven't yet tried it.

Set forth the poll question and choices you'd like, and I'll give it a try.

[VANDOO]

MANY GROUPS WOULD CONSIDER PEOPLE WHO COLLECT EDGED WEAPONS AS KOOKS. THE ANTI WEAPON GROUPS WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER ANY SUCH PEOPLE DANGEROUS FOR POSESSING OR TRAINING WITH ANY TYPE OF WEAPON. WEAPON COLLECTING OF ANY TYPE MAY BE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ACCORDING TO CERTIAN LIBRAL GROUPS, THERE SEEM TO BE GROUPS WHO PROTEST AGAINST EVERYTHING COLLECTING AND OTHERWISE.
FORTUNATELY THESE PEOPLE ARE SELDOM ENCOUNTERED AND USUALLY APPEAR ONLY IN THE MEDIA AND NOT TOO OFTEN THERE. I DON'T CONSIDER THESE FOLKS AS IMPORTANT AND ONE MANS KOOK IS ANOTHERS SCHOLAR, TEACHER AND CONNISUR . TO EACH HIS OWN BE IT RENISANCE FAIR, STAR TRECK CONVENTION, OPERA OR THE FORUM GATHERING IN TIMONIUM (ALAS I CAN'T MAKE IT THIS YEAR )

I HAVE NEVER BEEN A CONFORMIST AND FOLLOW MY INTERESTS AS I PLEASE EVEN IF THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF WHAT A FELLOW FROM THE SOUTH WEST SHOULD. FOR EXAMPLE SPORTS, FISHING AND HUNTING, TOOLS, CARS, MACHINES AND GIRLS I AM INTERESTED IN ALL THESE THINGS ALSO BUT DON'T LIMIT MYSELF TO THEM. FRIENDS AND FAMILY HAVE SOMETIMES THOUGHT I SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY ON OFFBEAT THINGS LIKE FORIGN TRAVEL AND COLLECTING ODD THINGS. PERHAPS THEY ARE RIGHT BUT I VALUE THE EXPERIENCE OF VISITING COUNTRYS AND CULTURES DIFFERENT FROM MY OWN AND STUDYING THE OBJECTS AND CRITTERS THERE MORE THAN MERELY SAVEING A PILE OF MONEY. (I JUST WISH I HAD LOTS MORE MERE MONEY SO I COULD RAMBLE AND COLLECT MORE )
A EDGED WEAPON POINTED AT YOU IN A AGRESSIVE MANNER DOES INSTILL A DIFFERENT KIND OF FEAR THAN A GUN, SOMEHOW IT IS MORE PERSONEL.
I DON'T FEEL THAT EDGED WEAPONS ARE IN A CULTURAL GHETTO ALTHOUGH SOME DO HAVE A STIGMA ATTACHED TO THEM. THE MOVIES MADE A COMMON KNIFE HERE IN THE USA WHICH COULD BE FOUND IN MOST FISHING AND TOOL BOXES INTO A EVIL THING, I SPEAK OF THE SWITCH BLADE. AFTER THE MOVIES CAME OUT EVERYONE IN GANGS AND OTHERWISE WANTED TO CARRY ONE AND LAWS WERE PASSED BANNING THEM. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER CASES IN MOST COUNTRYS OVER THE WORLD AS THE USA IS A VERY YOUNG COUNTRY AND JUMPED FROM THE STONE AGE TO IRON, CANNONS AND GUNS IN FAIRLY RECENT TIMES.
SOME GOVERMENTS SEEM TO BE ASHAMED OF THEIR HISTORY AND WANT TO BURY IT AND JUST PLAY UP HOW MODERN THEY ARE AND PUT DOWN MANY GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THEIR ANCESTORS BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER THEM PRIMATIVES. IN SUCH CASES MUSEUMS AND BOOKS ARE STRIPPED OF THEIR TREASURES AND THE CURRENT DOGMA TAKES ITS PLACE. THIS IS UNFORTUNATE AND IS ALSO ONE OF THE REASONS COLLECTIONS OF WEAPONS AND BIOLOGICAL SPECIMINS ARE REMOVED FROM DISPLAYS AND REPLACED WITH INTERPRETIVE EXHIBITS. THIS MAKES IT MORE POLITICALLY CORRECT AND ECOLOGICALLY SENSITIVE BUT MUCH OF THE WONDER OF THE WORLD AND ITS HISTORY AND CREATURES ARE LOST FROM VIEW. THE ENDLESS VARIETY IN THIS WORLD HAS ALWAYS BEEN OF GREAT INTREST AND I LIKE TO SEE , DO AND LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WHICH MAKES ME A POOR SCHOLAR AS I COVER TOO MUCH AND DON'T FOCUS ON A SPECIALITY.
I TOOK TAIKWONDO FROM MASTER DON WON KANG WHO WAS A KOREAN EIGHTH DEGREE BLACK BELT AT THE TIME AND HE TAUGHT SWORD TECKNIQUES TO THE UPPER BELTS. THERE WAS NO CUTTING AND I DIDN'T ADVANCE FAR ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY SPAR BUT DID ENJOY IT AND PICKED UP A NICE JAPANESE SWORD TO PRACTICE WITH WHEN NOT USING A STICK. PARDON MY RAMBELINGS ITS LATE GOOD NIGHT

[John]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I presume that we will hopefully have a contribution for the clarification of the meaning of Kris.

This popular Good Keris thread covers the definition of Keris as well as how the word Keris is derived. Thought I bring it up here for ease of reference.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by John

This popular Good Keris thread covers the definition of Keris as well as how the word Keris is derived. Thought I bring it up here for ease of reference.

John,
Thank you very much for posting the link here. Most invaluable.

Vandoo, Jim, Federico and all other gentlemen,
Please forgive me for not being able to reply one by one to all your great posts.
I have been extremely busy and am having a bit of a rest now

Andrew,

Thank you for your assistance with the poll. My idea about the poll is to see very simple answers to questions so that they might eventually be incorporated in another area of the Forum as Socio Anthropological information.

Here they:

1. What is your ancestral background?

2. Where do you live?

3. At what age did you beging to feel attracted by swords?
- adolescence
- 20's
- 30's
-Later

4. Do you feel segregated as a sword collector?
Yes No

5. Has your profession played a role in being a collector?

6. Reason you collect Ethnographical Weapons
- reminds me of my roots
- interested in specific cultures
- because of its beautiful per se

7. What is your definition of Ethnografical Weapons?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

8. State which do you consider Ethnographical Weapons?

9. Why?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

10. Which countries swords do you collect mostly?

11. Are you open to other types?

I hope this can cover most of the issues. Feel free to add more questions.
Thank you Andrew and all

[wolviex]

Antonio - as far as I know, forum poll option is possible to apply when you've got few answers to choose, like A, B, C, and then system is able to count answers and give you a percent result - but let's wait what Andrew can do, maybe I'm wrong.

Questions are ok, but let me have one remark - maybe I'm the exception, but I can't answer to a few questions like: "Has your profession played a role in being a collector?" or "Which countries swords do you collect mostly?", while I'm no collector just a museum worker - maybe I should answer as an Institution

Best regards!

[Antonio Cejunior]

Wolviex,

Thank you for your kind information. I am not sure how to move around and appreciate Andrew's help and adaptation whenever necessary.

Indeed, I think it is fine to answer as an Institution. Thank you.
Best regards.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

John,
Thank you very much for posting the link here. Most invaluable.




I think I'll just try to jump in on these questions. Nice answers by everyone; very in depth; I doubt I shall go so deeply, but then I do tend to ramble.....


1. What is your ancestral background?

Hillbilly. Iroquois, Cherokee, German, Welsh, some Swedish I think, some Scottish, no doubt, possibly some Irish. Good ol' mutt, I guess. I generally refer to my racial background as American Indian, due, I supose, to my disgust with the dominant culture. Raised Roman Catholic; the animist truth was always clear to me; eventually I began to recognize the single identity of the Old Religion.....Oops; rambling; told ya.

2. Where do you live?
Short answer Houston. Slightly longer; I seem nomadic, though it doesn't please me. Insight into Tom for ya answer; in a world of idjits.

3. At what age did you beging to feel attracted by swords?
- adolescence
- 20's
- 30's
-Later

Earlier. Early childhood. Probably involved with my father's horrific tales of violence (kids love that stuff) and the old, mostly adventurous books I began reading at age 5 or 6. I was always an artist, early primarily a visual artist, and one of my fascinations was with the structure of what I was drawing. This didn't lead to me focussing in on swords, but it is my earliest memory of taking an interest in how they are made. Oh! And the Bible, or as I sometimes call it "Tales of Theft and Violence"; really bloody stuff that stirs the imagination of young boys.
Also, and I think appropriately, weapons are very much associated in my mind with the concepts of manhood, indeed of human-ness, and of freedom.
I think the assumption it might begin in adolescence may be going in with the popular conception of swords/blades as penis symbols. I tend to think this a pretty bogus concept, sensical mostly to people who are not truly familiar with blades (amazingly common among the industrial culture, where things are cut by specialized professionals). I won't go into extolling my penis, but I'll tell you this; it isn't much like a sword; almost the opposite.

4. Do you feel segregated as a sword collector?
Yes No
I feel so segregated from the humans in general and the Americans in particular that it's very hard for me to tell. Male humans usually have a passing and surface interest in the matter. Females usually make some nervous comment question about serial killery/rapism; playing it into a joke seems to calm them; nervousness, defensiveness, or thoughtfulness to make them more nervous. Silly humans; this sort of conception of me leaps to their minds, anyway, as I am weird and not pretty weird, but ugly weird; hairy and fat and muscular, often looking and smelling much like a wild animal, inarticulate, with a seething blend of reticence and warlike angy boldness (I try to suppress that, but it is my true nature, I suppose; I have never been much to put up with abuse, at least once I recognize it as such....and the humans are always abusing....it's that quietude that transforms explosively. People don't know what it is, but I supose they know they don't want to be around it.), and a near total lack of the largely standardized manipulativeneness the N Americans call "social skills". We're hearing a lot about autism lately, and I'm pretty sure if I was a kid now they'd say I has Asberger's syndrome, and probably try to drug me up on some of their experimental drugs
On the other hand, once I was trying to sell some swords at an open market and I had them spread out, and this guy came by; I think he was a South American man, though I can't recall any particular detail about him that made me think that, and he had a young child with him, walking, and they were looking at the goods in the market. He got about 1/2 way past me and then his eyes went wide with horror at what he was looking at. He snatched up the child and hurried away, casting me a look blended of hate and fear. Once under the same circumstance a N American youth tried wordlessly to threaten me with one of my own swords.....I sneered, firmed my feet (I was sitting) and held my quartering staff.
For my own part, I find I am more disturbed and bemused by my urge to collect (started with tree-shed bird's nests, snailshells, and rocks) than by what I collect. Whenever a woman nervously asks me why I collect swords I try to answer the collecting question instead; I think it's more meaningful.
Gotta agree that there is a weird blend of fear with over-casualness. Ordinary modernes will up and touch a blade by its edge! Too many movies; too little experience of real blades that will actually cut. I liked the Zefferelli (spelling?) Hamlet, but there he is, holding his sword by the blade in a fit of grief; blood would be running......


5. Has your profession played a role in being a collector?

I've worked primarily as a cook and a woodworker; both jobs with a lot of cutting and cutlery.

6. Reason you collect Ethnographical Weapons
- reminds me of my roots
- interested in specific cultures
- because of its beautiful per se

Again, a miss. I came to collect antique and foreign edged weapons because I couldn't afford new high quality ones, and I found that if I looked around I could get old ones really cheaply from people who considered them junk. My interest in swords began as and remains an interest in them as a living art form, as deadly and relevant weapons, and (did I mention I am an animist?) as living persons.

7. What is your definition of Ethnografical Weapons?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

I don't know that there is a definition. Any product of a culture is ethnological. (we had a weird etymological discussion of this on the old forum, in, of all places, "supreme katanas" I think). I certainly see a marked difference between modern industrial culture ruled by what I've come to call "The Over-culture"; the academic/government/military/industrial pseudo tribe that rules the Earth, and traditional culture and between their products. I guess handmade and consciously traditional vs machine made and industrially designed.

8. State which do you consider Ethnographical Weapons?


9. Why?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

10. Which countries swords do you collect mostly? I have no preferrence, really, but if one country has predominated amongst those I both like and can afford I suppose it would be either S Phillipines or W Europe. Lately I've been picking up some nice Mexican stuff.

11. Are you open to other types?
Yep

I hope this can cover most of the issues. Feel free to add more questions.
Thank you Andrew and all

The best hilt material is probably straight grain slow-grown climax forest beech heartwood (though not the actual, very heart; this may confuse; the heart is the actual core; the innermost 4-6 inches, and tends to be more cracky/less stable; the heartwood is the fully hardened structural wood, all the way out to the sapwood, which is still being used to move fluid), or possibly cattle/buffaloe horn. Nonfibrous hilt materials are usually a bad choice, because they break/shatter with random directionality, and so cannot be bound against it with ferules as can horn, wood, etc. A partial exception for solid metals if they are hard enough to suport the stress; aluminum is good; brass tends to be too heavy if solid; zinc potmetal is as bad as plastic, if you ask me. Metal also has the problem of getting too hot/too cold.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thanks Tom

I posted the earlier row of questions for Andrew to kindly make a poll of it.
But your answer is invaluable.
Thank you so much.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Antonio,
I really think you have in effect, awakened a sleeping giant here! While I have long considered the anthropological and cultural aspects of the weapons and those who used them of paramount importance, I had honestly never thought of the sociological perspective of those who collect and study them! Brilliant thought! and even more, fascinating responses.
Another important thing I notice, and would like to thank you for, is that you very patiently and consistantly address everyone who responds to you directly and personally. I know that I appreciate that very much, as I am sure does everyone, and I think it is even more amazing considering the volume that has developed in this thread.

While I know I have already responded to the original questions, it was later asked if we thought that our interest in weapons led to certain disapproval by others. I know that I personally view these now static weapons as virtually living elements of history. I have already noted my passion for the study of history, but how can one describe the incredible excitement in viewing Lady Butler's painting of the Royal Scots Greys charge at Waterloo, while holding a heavy cavalry disc hilt that was there! How I took a photo of an inscription from a magnificent Islamic shamshir to a friend who was Muslim hoping for translation. He seemed stunned and his eyes welled with tears as he noted the inscription's inclusion of the name of the Prophet. He then most reverently kissed the photograph.
I think most of the people I have ever spoken to concerning my studies on edged weapons consider it interesting at first, even in degree fascinating. I always know if they ask questions to pursue the conversation further, most do.In any case I think that the fact that my interest clearly represents love of history rather than the emphasis on how the weapons were used tends to guage how others perceive my admittedly unusual avocation.

I work in an extremely large international airport (DFW) and interact with often thousands of people each day from all over the world. I enjoy talking with people of many cultures, faiths and groups and most enjoy the glee in thier eyes when I recognize where they are from and open discussion on thier country or culture, for example a Sikh from the Punjab, a Hindu from Madras, an Armenian, Persian, tribesmen from Guinea, Sudan, Eritrea. These people are incredibly proud of thier heritage, and I admire them. While our contact is of course brief, they love having been recognized, and they invariably will express gratitude and appreciation for the respect shown. On occasions where I have had time to speak with many of these people, there has been time for discussion that leads to weapons. The most productive I recall have been probably the African countries, for example a Fur gentleman from Darfur who openly discussed the kaskara, and once a group of men from several African countries who all anxiously and delightedly wanted to talk of the weapons of thier own countries. We talked, drew pictures and described and all were thrilled, especially me!! I took notes, and my studies reached new and more personal dimension.
I think the most important thing illustrated in these incidents is the importance of awareness, understanding and respect for the cultures and beliefs of others. If there were more of this in the world, there would be little need for the tragedy of war and fighting, and as you have emphasized, there might be peace at last.
How ironic is it that my deep respect and admiration for other cultures actually came from the study of weapons!!?


Another extremely important factor you have keyed upon is the more subjective topic of the magical,talismanic and superstitious/religious connotations that are actually quite critical in properly understanding most ethnographic weapons, with the keris mentioned appropiately in specific.

While I again would defer such complexities for more specifically defined
discussion, you had asked about the meaning of 'keris'. I have been hoping that some of our keris scholars might address this, in the meantime what I have discovered is that the dictionary entry suggests this is a Malay term for dagger, with no etymology noted. The word seems to have entered the English language c.1580 with Sir Francis Drake bringing several back to England. The keris was of course well known through trade by the Dutch, and appears in paintings, most notably Rembrandt's 'Samson' of 1628.
It seems that in a discussion with Ruel Macaraeg, who is a very astute linguist and often writes on these forums, he suggested (5/2000) that the term may come from the Khmer word 'kroeus'. While I cannot elaborate on this further, it seems an interesting clue for the derivation of the term.

In closing I would note the one comment that has been expressed to me countless times over the years has been, "if only these weapons could talk!!".
The truth is...they do!!! if we will just see what they are trying to tell us!!!

Very best regards,
Jim