Tulwar Inscription

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 02:25 AM

Hi Norman,
I'm glad you have decided to post here. Your tulwar seems to have a most interesting blade, and I cant recall ever seeing a blade with this linear vegetal motif along the back. Perhaps you might show the entire sword so we can see the entire blade profile and the hilt. These sometimes present clues as to the possible provenance of the sword, though admittedly, with Indian swords, especially tulwars it is difficult if even possible.

While hoping that our friend Olikara might offer insight on the characters inscribed in the blade, I would suggest they might be Urdu numerics, though I clearly am no linguist. The circle over three dots may represent the sun and the three dots, the trimurti, a numeric sequence key in symbolism and markings in many cultures. In the meantime, I look forward to full view of the weapon.

All best regards,
Jim

olikara · 8th December 2007, 03:02 AM

Norman,

This is definitely not any of Indias Devnagairi related scripts i.e. languages spoken across the swathe of Hindu India's Northern, Western and Central provinces.

They look to me more like symbols.

Olikara

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 04:28 AM

Thanks very much Olikara! Now that we know the characters are not from any of India's alphabets, we need to think of what kind of symbols these might be. As I noted, the circle and three dots may represent sun and the trimurti...but in alignment with what? as they seem strategically aligned with the 'symbols'.

All very best regards,
Jim

olikara · 8th December 2007, 07:05 AM

Jim,
Why I think they may be symbolic or may be just another armoury mark(Jens can help here) is because if you notice the inscriptions you only see the fish hook type character all over.

Either singly or one after another or reversed.

Yes the circular symbol with the 3 dots around should in all probability represent the 'Trimurthi' trinity. And then it would give ownership of the sword/blade to a Hindu rather than a Muslim.

Nidhi

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2007, 03:35 PM

Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge Olikara

.

Although I have a feeling that I have seen something like this before, I can’t help, and unfortunately I don’t remember where I have seen it, only that it is years ago. I think the blade should be turned 180° - like this.

It seems like a nice blade, and like Jim, I am looking forward to see the whole sword.

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 03:58 PM

Well said Nidhi! That makes sense that it might be an arsenal marking as well. It seems to recall, though obviously not the same, the punched dot script from the Bikaneer armoury. With the trimurthi component established, and of course the Hindu association, possibly this would be a Rajput weapon. What do you think Jens?

Norman, could we see the rest of the sword?

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2007, 04:21 PM

Hi Jim,

From what we have seen of the blade, it looks nice, but I can’t from what we have seen, start guessing from where in India it is.

I can’t say that it is not an armoury mark, as I don’t know, but to me it is strange as the armoury marks normally consists of letters and numerals, or maybe sometimes of a mark, like, maybe, the katar (if this is an armoury mark) or some other mark. What bothers me is, that most of the armoury marks I have seen use numbers, so they must have had quite a good check on the weapons in the armoury, so why, all of a sudden, use a marking, which does not fit in any of the Indian languages that we know of?

Jens

spiral · 8th December 2007, 04:22 PM

It reminds me of script marks ive seen on some old Afghan weapons.

Spiral

8th December 2007, 03:02 AM	#2
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Not Nagari Script Norman, This is definitely not any of Indias Devnagairi related scripts i.e. languages spoken across the swathe of Hindu India's Northern, Western and Central provinces. They look to me more like symbols. Olikara

8th December 2007, 07:05 AM	#4
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Fish Hook Jim, Why I think they may be symbolic or may be just another armoury mark(Jens can help here) is because if you notice the inscriptions you only see the fish hook type character all over. Either singly or one after another or reversed. Yes the circular symbol with the 3 dots around should in all probability represent the 'Trimurthi' trinity. And then it would give ownership of the sword/blade to a Hindu rather than a Muslim. Nidhi

8th December 2007, 03:35 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge Olikara. Although I have a feeling that I have seen something like this before, I can’t help, and unfortunately I don’t remember where I have seen it, only that it is years ago. I think the blade should be turned 180° - like this. It seems like a nice blade, and like Jim, I am looking forward to see the whole sword. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 02:25 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Norman, I'm glad you have decided to post here. Your tulwar seems to have a most interesting blade, and I cant recall ever seeing a blade with this linear vegetal motif along the back. Perhaps you might show the entire sword so we can see the entire blade profile and the hilt. These sometimes present clues as to the possible provenance of the sword, though admittedly, with Indian swords, especially tulwars it is difficult if even possible. While hoping that our friend Olikara might offer insight on the characters inscribed in the blade, I would suggest they might be Urdu numerics, though I clearly am no linguist. The circle over three dots may represent the sun and the three dots, the trimurti, a numeric sequence key in symbolism and markings in many cultures. In the meantime, I look forward to full view of the weapon. All best regards, Jim

8th December 2007, 04:28 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Olikara! Now that we know the characters are not from any of India's alphabets, we need to think of what kind of symbols these might be. As I noted, the circle and three dots may represent sun and the trimurti...but in alignment with what? as they seem strategically aligned with the 'symbols'. All very best regards, Jim

8th December 2007, 03:58 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Well said Nidhi! That makes sense that it might be an arsenal marking as well. It seems to recall, though obviously not the same, the punched dot script from the Bikaneer armoury. With the trimurthi component established, and of course the Hindu association, possibly this would be a Rajput weapon. What do you think Jens? Norman, could we see the rest of the sword?

8th December 2007, 04:21 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, From what we have seen of the blade, it looks nice, but I can’t from what we have seen, start guessing from where in India it is. I can’t say that it is not an armoury mark, as I don’t know, but to me it is strange as the armoury marks normally consists of letters and numerals, or maybe sometimes of a mark, like, maybe, the katar (if this is an armoury mark) or some other mark. What bothers me is, that most of the armoury marks I have seen use numbers, so they must have had quite a good check on the weapons in the armoury, so why, all of a sudden, use a marking, which does not fit in any of the Indian languages that we know of? Jens

8th December 2007, 04:22 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	It reminds me of script marks ive seen on some old Afghan weapons. Spiral