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5th December 2007, 02:48 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 199
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Quote:
Hope you can enlighten me. After the equal division of Mataram kingdom (Paliyan Nagari), Mataram became Surokarto and Jogjakarto that its border cutting of Prambanan. Furthermore, there were several Nagari Gungs (the extended territories), perhaps as you said "vassals", such as Banyumas, Pasir, Ponorogo, Pacitan, Ngawi, Madiun. I got some stories that Nagari Gung was also divided equally. For example Pasir was divided into two regions. As a consequence, in Pasir there were both Surokarto and Jogjokarto influences depended in which part of Pasir. It is a story without supported by written evidence. So, if you have other story especially "history" about the status of Mataram's vassals after the division of Kingdom, please share in this forum. warm salam, Usman |
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9th December 2007, 05:56 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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frustrations !
gentlemen,
I like indeed your discussion about mendak, about keris, about the history of Indonesia, etc. but you use often words in Indonesian that I do not understand. As I have purchased an excellent English-Indonesian dictionary (as recommended by my good adviser from Australia who speaks both languages) I have tried to look for these words and other from the book "Keris Jawa antara Mystic dan nalar". To my great frustration, I have found none ! Assuming that I am not a complete nut, (past history is no proof for the present) I must do something wrong when I look at words in my dictionary. I suspect it may come from the prefix and suffix used in Indonesian. or from the spelling as it appears that Indonesian word may be spelled variously. (i.e. mendak, mendhak). Can you tel me how can I identify the base form of the word ? ( in particular since bases undergo apparently modifications when certain prefixes are attached.) Please do not answer the easy way by telling me : learn Indonesian ! I have tried some 10 years ago with Bahasa Malaysia and already at that time it was not a success ! Thanks for any clue Michel Last edited by Michel; 9th December 2007 at 06:22 PM. |
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10th December 2007, 01:08 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
I understand your difficulty. Especially in understanding the keris term that sometimes came from javanese words, and many times from old javanese for instance Kawi, or even Sanskrit. Even the word "mendhak" in keris term, is different with "mendhak" -- or mendak -- in the general javanese meaning. Mendhak (dha is just to differ from "da" (soft spelling. Because in javanese, if you spell "deder" with hard "dha" like "dhedher", then the meaning is very far different) in keris term mean like "keris ring" below the ganja, keris accesories. But, mendhak in general javanese term (you may write to as mendak, it depends), may means "every". And may means too as "to low down -- for instance, in a move from upper step to lower step." Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Malaysia, came from the same root of Malay. But sometimes with different spelling and even the vocab words came from the different origin. Malaysian, used to add the vocabulary from English words. But Indonesian, more from Dutch word and many of them from Javanese, or old javanese words. So complicated not only for foreigners, but even for Indonesians theirselves. As you know, Javanese language is only one of hundreds slangs in Indonesian archipelago. As you know too, Indonesia spreads in more than 33.000 islands, and in three different time-zones (West Indonesian Time, Central Indonesian Time and Eastern Indonesian Time). The javanese people, spreads almost all over the archipelago, and so dominant in the Indonesian culture. I hope this will help you, a little bit... Ganjawulung |
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10th December 2007, 01:44 AM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 103
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Dear Michel,
I'm terribly sorry to hear that you became frustrated on learning Indonesian, and keris terminology, specifically. Keris's terminology, especially Javanese keris terminology, is a highly specialized terminology. It came from Javanese language, not Indonesian. Today, even an ordinary Javanese, which was born and speak Javanese every day, is not 'guarantee' to understand some specific keris's jargons such as ganja, greneng, or mendhak. It is a highly specialized jargon for special peoples : keris lover  . So, if you are looking a keris jargon in Indonesian Dictionary, it will be very likely taht you find none, or misleaded, such if you find 'ukiran' you may find 'carving' other than 'handle' as the translation. It doesn't mean that Javanese dictionary will 100% help you either. It may help you, but not 100%. Not even the thick Zoetmulder dictionary. I heard SNKI will compose a Dictionary on Keris Terminology, but I think it may face it's own challenge: disagreement amongs keris expert regarding some specific terminology. But it is worth to try Yes, Indonesia language use prefix and suffix extensively, and the original word might changed a little bit. If you cannot find the base word, you may try an online dictionary which allow you to put whole word. Perhaps this may help : http://www.kamus.net/ Software on learning Indonesian : (Free, they said, but unfortunately I haven't tried it) : http://www.byki.com/download_FLS.pl?cod=4x8BU1 Most of all, you have this forum, certainly for free  Cheers, Boedhi Adhitya |
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10th December 2007, 09:27 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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keris related terminology
Dear Ganjawulung,
Thank you. Your kind explanations show quite clearly that what I had assumed as feasible for an old brain like mine, may be a bit far fetched. My objective is not to understand a complete Indonesian books about keris but only to understand captions under illustrations (as in Keris Jawa antara mystic dan nalar) or words in a discussion on the forum. I will see what I can do with the two very interesting on line support that Boedhi Adhitya, has kindly supplied. Thank you very much Boedhi Adhitya. You suggest Boedhi that I could ask on the forum the meaning of some words. I have thought about it previously but it is not really feasible. To give you an example, I was trying to understand the exact meaning of the different phases in the sculpturing of a keris as explained on pages 110,111 and 112 of Keris Jawa. Even if the illustrations are excellent, the exact meaning of each caption would be enlighting. With an average of 15 words per page, I found none of the words in my dictionary. I do not think I can come with 45 words, each one specifically related to one picture in one specific book in the forum and ask for its translation. It would be boring for too many forumnites and the translators ! Considering what you have said about the keris terminology I may not succeed even with the on line dictionary but it is worth trying. Thanks again to both of you Regards Michel |
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11th December 2007, 01:23 AM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
The instructional of keris making in Haryono's book (page 110, 111, and 112), is really technical. Litterally, the "javanese" words -- yes, those are all javanese words -- may means different from the words. Like "nyawati" in the first picture (number 15). Literally means like "throwing stones to somewhere". Or "diwangun" (there are diwangun 1, diwangun 2, and diwangun 3) literally means forming the blade in order not to be "clumsy" (?) -- you may help me, Mas Boedhi. On "ngilap" and "ngleseh" these were really "plastical" javanese words, that needs to see the demonstration... I think Alan could explain to you better on these really technical instructions of keris making -- the second stage of keris blade forming... Ganjawulung |
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11th December 2007, 07:15 AM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 103
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Quote:
wish may help, boedhi adhitya |
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11th December 2007, 10:17 AM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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"diwangun", "ngilap" of "ngleseh"
Thank you Gentlemen,
You both helped. To let you understand why is it important for me to understand some words of "Javanese" (and not Indonesian, as I had assumed), I am in the process of giving shape to a keris patrem. During my first steps (forging) I made few errors that were corrected by Alan, lemmythesmith, Ric, all forumnites. Before and during the long process of stock removal, I wanted to avoid new errors and the good images of Keris Jawa, are an excellent guide that can be improved by the understanding of the words :diwangun", "ngilap" of "ngleseh". as grinding , filing , shaping. It is a confirmation that my understanding was correct. But fig. 30 and 31 : Natah tikel alis and Natah sraweyan, would be even more useful ! Alan was also kind enough to supply a complete glossary of terms related to keris, which quite obviously do not cover very specific Javanese keris manufacturing terms. Thank you to all, your help is appreciated. Regards Michel |
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