Very Old Firangi with Rapier blade in need of restoration.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fernando
I'm glad you were thinking the same thing. The more I think of it, indeed the skill of rapier technique required lengthy and intense training, and it would be unlikely for someone unskilled to use one. In actuality, the Mahrattas and certainly other groups in degree were against the use of the thrust, favoring slashing cuts.
This interesting hybrid seems likely to have been either for a civil official or as noted an influental merchant, but hard to determine whether Indian or possibly European. As you have noted, the often discussed observation on hilt size would seem to have some indication, despite the often noted suggestion that even Europeans were smaller then. In either case, this sword was likely a weapon intended as an element of prestige, not necessarily for combat use.

All very best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jens, Fernando and Jim,
Thank you for your thoughts


Although it is possible that this Firangi was created for a European, I think it unlikely.

First of all the hilt is small, the actual handle section is only 3" (7.5 cms) 'suggesting', if the 'small hand debate' is correct, that this was for use by a native warrior.

Secondly, the hilt design is 'restrictive' compared with a typical Rapier hilt and would not allow the 'normal' sword technique associated with the Rapier. Therefore it is unlikely a European would carry this sword for defence, as the hilt would make it difficult to use, with the sword technique that was known to him. A potentially lethal mistake.

Thirdly, there is no evidence of any decoration or embellishment......surely a Dignitary or rich merchant would 'require' this, to enhance his status. To me this is a functional, basic sword for use, not personal adornment.

Fourthly, I have learned that the fencing 'cut and thrust' we associate with Rapiers is a 'Hollywood' exaggeration. A Rapier had minimal cutting ability, cuts received from a Rapier tend to be 'superficial', used to distract, annoy and confuse your opponent. A true Rapier was a thrust weapon, plain and simple.
Training in the more 'advanced' use of the Rapier would be required if your opponents were also expected to be armed with a Rapier.

Fifthly, Indian soldiers were very used to employing a Dhal to parry sword blows. Much of their sword technique require this and would be an easy transition to the use of a Dhal and Rapier (Rapier vs. Rapier, the main gauche or small buckler was not as important, but against heavier swords it was essential)

Sixthly, not all Indian weapons were for the 'cut', the Pata would mainly be used as a thrust weapon, as were the long bladed Kata

Seventh, Indian swordsman, knowing the sword technique for Tulwar/Khanda would surely 'create' their own technique (with the Rapier bladed Firangi) against them. Bearing in mind the Portuguese, a number armed with Rapiers, had taken Goa, and was established there by military force. The locals would have seen the Rapier in action.

I believe that the Indians did find a niche for the long thrusting blade, attacking horse mounted soldiers 'springs to mind', lighter, longer and easier to use than a heavy Khanda. In the descriptions of a few Rapier bladed Firangi I have seen, many stated that the blades are edge sharpened for most of their length (as is mine) This was likely an Indian modification because true Rapiers, at most, had 1/3 of the blade sharp edged (from the tip), if at all.

I agree that there are very few Firangi of this type, bearing in mind the Rapier was losing favour in Europe (early 18thC) due to Social/fashionable reasons (rather than the effectiveness of the Rapier) could be a reason for the blades decline in India. Obviously the 'other end of the story' could easily be that these were not as popular with Indian soldiers I cannot find any references to the use of this type of Firangi in India, and could be any number of reasons.

Kind Regards David

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi David,
I'm no expert here, but you mention the Pata being mainly a thrust weapon.
What I have read, indicates the Pata was a cutting/slicing weapon, and had a springy, thin blade.

You may of heard of the Pata demonstration, where the small limes are set on the ground in a circle, and the sword wielder chops them neatly in two, without breaking his wild dance steps.

All the best,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

David,

I am with you a long part of the way, and agree with you; but I don’t agree with you, when you say that the pata was mainly used for thrusting. Remember that at least some of the patas were mounted with flexible blades, not at all suited for trusting against a chain mail.

There is, however, one type of ‘sword’, which I thought of when you showed the rapier blade (see the picture). It was used for only one thing, to kill an opponent dressed in a mail shirt, or maybe in plates, trying to find a weak point. The blade is not sharp at all, on the contrary, it is squarish/roundish, but the tip is made for stabbing and it is not flexible at all. I can only remember to have seen one single one before, in the Army Museum in Istanbul.

Richard, the lime cutting - excelent.


Jens

[olikara]

David, Jens,

Isn't the 'sword' in the middle of the 3 on display similar to the one you have shown?

This is from the Arms and Armour section at the local museum here in Shimoga, South India.

Olikara

[Jens Nordlunde]

Olikara,
Its an interesting picture, and yes, I think it must be with a rapier blade. I don't know what the blade I shower is called in English, but in German it is called a Panzersticker - or something along this line. These blades are really rare, just imagine to go to war with a blade which is dull, really dull, it can only be used for thrusting. Unless the one using it had a backup armed with a choise of swords, so swords could be changed during the fight.
Jens

[katana]

Wow, so many postings ...in a short period of time.


So bear with me as I try to address all the questions and comments.....

Hi Richard, nice to hear from you

As to your comments ..and Jens (Hi Jens) regarding the Pata. I didn't explain myself properly, I should have said '...a number of Pata...'

My opinion on the Pata is based on 'engineering criteria'. If you look at the majority of the 'fixing points' of the blade to the gauntlet they seem 'weak'. A cutting blade would, during combat, be likely to strike armour, a shield or another blade. The blade, primarily would 'take the impact' and assuming it was strong/resilient enough, would not break. This impact stress would then be transferred to the 'fixing point'. As you can see on Fernando's and Bill's Patas .....compared to a Khanda and my Firangi they are 'weaker'. If the blade were to be lost in battle ....the metal gauntlet left would not inspire my 'survival chances'. I do believe the Pata could be used to cut/slash but feel that stabbing would be a 'safer' technique.

I have never heard of the 'Lime demonstration' but strangely and coincidently I, using this Firangi to cut two 'upright' banana's....it left both halves on top of each other !!! I was curious as to how the blade would cut, and didn't want to damage the blade with a more worthy target The sword was easily controlled and its 'action' is very quick ... a 'joy' to play with ...well 'play' is inaccurate...but it is 'fun'.

The Rapier bladed Firangi has its blade firmly fixed and supported by the 'inverted T plates', spreading the 'load/stress' if used in a cutting action. To reinforce this further, the tang of the blade continues through the hilt and would have terminated at the pommel spike (had it been there). A strong fixing indeed, as if this was used to 'cut' as well as 'stab'. (remembering that the blade is double edged from tip to the 'mounting' plates.

This strongly suggests that the blade was adapted, AFAIK all 'true' European Rapier blades had this feature.

Jens thank you for showing this sword, the 'blade' is similar to 'later' Rapier 'blades', used, as this one, to stab...from long range. A very interesting sword, it suggests to me that the advantage of a 'long range' thrusting weapon was 'known' by the Indian sword designers. Which could add 'weight' to the possibility that re-hilted Rapier blades were used differently to the Rapier.

Hi Olikara,
thank you very much for posting the picture , do you have any information about the middle Firangi ?

It would seem strange to have a sword possibly attributable to a European 'invader', exhibited with other Indian swords


This is getting very interesting.....thank you

Kind Regards David