A pair of Khandas for Comments

olikara · 2nd December 2007, 12:35 PM

Hello Comrades on the Forum,

Please find photographs of 2 swords for your valuable comments. They appear to be Khandas and have been provenanced to the South of India (Mysore). However, they could have originated from anywhere!

Both of them are in good condition but with varying patina on the blades. The blades are single edged in both cases and still retain their sharpness with some nicks to them perhaps implying that they were tested in combat. The hilts are typical Khanda hilts and are quite rusty now.

One of them has 3 fullers across the blade and the other one has 2 fullers across. Further Details follow:

3 fullers blade(The sword on the LEFT of 1st photograph):

Blade Length: 90 cms
Blade width at thickest: 3.4 cms.
Length Quillon-Quillon: 10 cms.
Length of Grip: 9 cms.
This blade has decorations etched along the langets and the knuckle guard.
The pommel end is spiked but the spike is pressed down into the pommel disc.

2 fullers blade (The sword on the RIGHT of 1st photograph):

Blade Length: 90 cms
Blade width at thickest: 3.7 cms.
Length Quillon-Quillon: 12 cms.
Length of Grip: 9 cms.
The pommel end spike is (missing?)

That's all for now.

ariel · 2nd December 2007, 02:53 PM

Both sport what I think is European blades. Thus, strictly speaking, they are NOT Khandas, but Firangis.
The condition of both is pretty grim: they need to be cleaned of active rust ( at least!) and oiled.
Are they stored in a moldy basement?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd December 2007, 03:25 PM

Olikara,

A nice pair of firangis, although they could do with some cleaning. Thank you for the measurers, do you have a weight as well?
It will be interesting to see if the hilts are of wootz – as some of them are.

It is hard to say if they are from Mysore, but to be on the save side, I would say Deccan, as these type of swords were much used in this area, and depending on which map you are looking at, Mysore could be part of Deccan.

Is there any inscription or other form for decoration on the blades? Probably not since you don’t mention any, but I thought I would ask all the same. The firangi blades I have seen are from about 80 cm to about 105 cm, but I have read about firangi blade being quite a bit longer. Sometimes the European blades were used as they were, and sometimes they were shortened, as fighting with very long blades is very difficult, so it needed a lot of swordsmanship to be able to handle these long blades.

The blades look European to me, but they could as well have been made in India, like so many of these blades. This would however make them firangis, as it is the blade type, together with the hilt, which makes them either a firangi or a khanda, not where the blade was made, as this can be impossible to prove.

The khandas are double edged, mostly with a round tip, not a pointed one, and as the blades often are very flexible, they are often reinforced at the upper half of the backside of the blade.

Jens

olikara · 2nd December 2007, 03:51 PM

Ariel,
Yes, they were stored for very, very long in a part of South India where it rains 5 months in a year. As you said, the cleaning process has to be begun immediately.

Jens,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The khandas are double edged, mostly with a round tip, not a pointed one, and as the blades often are very flexible, they are often reinforced at the upper half of the backside of the blade.
Jens

Thanks for the education.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2007, 04:16 AM

Those rounded tip blades are for slashing, and its interesting how many European blades have this feature.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd December 2007, 05:00 PM

Jim,
Do you have any comments on the blades?
You are better on European blades than I am, how old do you think they are, and from which kind of swords?
Jens

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 07:31 PM

These two firangis are indeed in rather rough condition, and as always I implore restraint! Conservative cleaning with gun oil or equivelant to remove any active rust and stabilize patination. Once cleaned it will be good to note perhaps variations in the manner the blade support is added, and the decorative designs in the elements.
I think Jens assessment of the regions probable for use are quite likely, as blades entering India through the Mahratta regions is well established, and these swords of course diffused from there. As we have discussed, the hilts on these are the traditional 'khanda' hilt, and these blades appear to be European horsemans sword blades of 18th century, probably latter, as many blades of this cross section were used on such cavalry swords well into 19th century. It is difficult to say for sure but obviously first inclination is German.I would hope for any marks of course.

These swords seem to have been favored for fighting from horseback with Mahratta horsemen, and while Rajputs also used the khanda in many cases, I have read that they typically chose to fight dismounted so possibly they may have used shorter blades. Whether such dismounted fighting was distinctly associated with the tulwar rather than khanda I cannot say, however it seemed worthy of note.With the diffusion of weapons in India brought by ever present foreign incursion, and constant geo-tribal conflict it is really hard to assign defined regions to many weapons.

Thank you for showing these Olikara!

All the best,
Jim

2nd December 2007, 12:35 PM	#1
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	A pair of Khandas for Comments Hello Comrades on the Forum, Please find photographs of 2 swords for your valuable comments. They appear to be Khandas and have been provenanced to the South of India (Mysore). However, they could have originated from anywhere! Both of them are in good condition but with varying patina on the blades. The blades are single edged in both cases and still retain their sharpness with some nicks to them perhaps implying that they were tested in combat. The hilts are typical Khanda hilts and are quite rusty now. One of them has 3 fullers across the blade and the other one has 2 fullers across. Further Details follow: 3 fullers blade(The sword on the LEFT of 1st photograph): Blade Length: 90 cms Blade width at thickest: 3.4 cms. Length Quillon-Quillon: 10 cms. Length of Grip: 9 cms. This blade has decorations etched along the langets and the knuckle guard. The pommel end is spiked but the spike is pressed down into the pommel disc. 2 fullers blade (The sword on the RIGHT of 1st photograph): Blade Length: 90 cms Blade width at thickest: 3.7 cms. Length Quillon-Quillon: 12 cms. Length of Grip: 9 cms. The pommel end spike is (missing?) That's all for now. Attached Images

2nd December 2007, 02:53 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Both sport what I think is European blades. Thus, strictly speaking, they are NOT Khandas, but Firangis. The condition of both is pretty grim: they need to be cleaned of active rust ( at least!) and oiled. Are they stored in a moldy basement?

2nd December 2007, 03:25 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Olikara, A nice pair of firangis, although they could do with some cleaning. Thank you for the measurers, do you have a weight as well? It will be interesting to see if the hilts are of wootz – as some of them are. It is hard to say if they are from Mysore, but to be on the save side, I would say Deccan, as these type of swords were much used in this area, and depending on which map you are looking at, Mysore could be part of Deccan. Is there any inscription or other form for decoration on the blades? Probably not since you don’t mention any, but I thought I would ask all the same. The firangi blades I have seen are from about 80 cm to about 105 cm, but I have read about firangi blade being quite a bit longer. Sometimes the European blades were used as they were, and sometimes they were shortened, as fighting with very long blades is very difficult, so it needed a lot of swordsmanship to be able to handle these long blades. The blades look European to me, but they could as well have been made in India, like so many of these blades. This would however make them firangis, as it is the blade type, together with the hilt, which makes them either a firangi or a khanda, not where the blade was made, as this can be impossible to prove. The khandas are double edged, mostly with a round tip, not a pointed one, and as the blades often are very flexible, they are often reinforced at the upper half of the backside of the blade. Jens

3rd December 2007, 04:16 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Those rounded tip blades are for slashing, and its interesting how many European blades have this feature.

3rd December 2007, 05:00 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, Do you have any comments on the blades? You are better on European blades than I am, how old do you think they are, and from which kind of swords? Jens

5th December 2007, 07:31 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	These two firangis are indeed in rather rough condition, and as always I implore restraint! Conservative cleaning with gun oil or equivelant to remove any active rust and stabilize patination. Once cleaned it will be good to note perhaps variations in the manner the blade support is added, and the decorative designs in the elements. I think Jens assessment of the regions probable for use are quite likely, as blades entering India through the Mahratta regions is well established, and these swords of course diffused from there. As we have discussed, the hilts on these are the traditional 'khanda' hilt, and these blades appear to be European horsemans sword blades of 18th century, probably latter, as many blades of this cross section were used on such cavalry swords well into 19th century. It is difficult to say for sure but obviously first inclination is German.I would hope for any marks of course. These swords seem to have been favored for fighting from horseback with Mahratta horsemen, and while Rajputs also used the khanda in many cases, I have read that they typically chose to fight dismounted so possibly they may have used shorter blades. Whether such dismounted fighting was distinctly associated with the tulwar rather than khanda I cannot say, however it seemed worthy of note.With the diffusion of weapons in India brought by ever present foreign incursion, and constant geo-tribal conflict it is really hard to assign defined regions to many weapons. Thank you for showing these Olikara! All the best, Jim