Inscriptions on Keris?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The other well known feature of Javanese culture that you have drawn attention to is the habit of mixing historically supportable fact with myth.

This is not just something that is a part of folk culture, but it can sometimes be found in text books.There is probably not a great deal wrong with this, provided it is used only within the culture. After all, history itself is only a set of stories that everybody agrees upon. Probably no real harm in adding in a few myths and legends.

Thank you, Alan for reminding me this "bad habit", about mixing history with myth. Fact with "dongeng" (story). Yes, even in text books you may find this "javanese habit". (So, no wonder about the side-meaning of "javanais" in some French sense as 'unlogical' or sometimes 'stupid').

Inscriptions, are factual evidence. But story like "Sombro" is indeed still "dongeng". Still have no factual evidence... Also the interpretation of Pajajaran. Kingdom of Pajajaran, then people will directly remember with Pajajaran in West Java. But "tangguh pajajaran" or maybe "tangguh pejajaran" -- is not factual but interpretation. It maybe translated not as tangguh from "Pajajaran Kingdom", but "tangguh pajajaran". Like "tangguh pengging". In story (not history), Pengging was not a name of any Javanese kingdom. It was only a small -- it was said in dongeng -- but important area before the Mataram (Islamic) period. Yes, this is what you mean by "word game". But sometimes, in speaking of Javanese keris, it seems quite impossible not to mention this kind of "mixing habit".

Oral traditions in the past Javanese culture, might be different with written tradition in noting evidence, events, in the western culture. But I found too, such habit when I was learning Latin language for six years intensively during my High School time.

Learning Latin -- or maybe Greek language too -- is different with learning English or French. In Latin, people must study folklore and legends too. For instance about the making of the city of Roma. All we had learned was legend, legend and legend. Or story on Gallia, which we interpreted as Early France. Also when I learned the poems (oratory) of Cicero book on Julius Caesar. We were ought to interprete, sometimes, on the meaning of the oratory on poems. Word games too. Very, very complicated for a non Latin native as me...

Were Latin Language everyday (one or two hours in schools everyday) I've learned unlogic? Not at all. Indeed, Latin language is very logic and obligatory to grasp the law and order of the complicated grammatical structure. Sometimes, even I have a "limited belief" that if you want to learn logica you must exercise with problem solving in Latin grammar....

French. Yes, it has the root on Latin structure. But I was ought to understand the different civilization. For me, learning language is also learning civilization. So I must know the civilization of the language too. I must learn to understand the habitude of the people who are native with the language.

Sorry for wandering a little bit. Of course, this is a waroeng...
Anyway, thank you Alan, for reminding me on this habit

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I would not say that mixing myth, legend, and history is a bad thing.

But I would say that it is something that a person who is unfamiliar with Javanese culture might find to be very confusing.

You are right of course:- when we discuss the keris it is inevitable that myth and legend will creep into our discussion; this is a part of keris culture. In Jawa some people will accept all the myth, all the legend as equal with supportable historic fact; others will not. But when we present myth and legend mixed with history to people who are outside Javanese culture, they have no frame of reference, and they can become very confused.

I agree totally with you:- the learning of language is more than the learning of a vocab and grammar. We need the body language, the mannerisms, in fact we need to change the way in which we think, when we attempt to communicate in a language other than our mother tongue. Sometimes we are successful, other times we are not. However, one thing is certain:- we usually need to moderate our native forms of expression and our native body language, and our native mannerisms , or it will not be long before nobody wants to talk to us, no matter how perfectly we can use the adopted language.If we do not understand the culture of a society, we simply cannot communicate effectively.

Similarly, the way in which Javanese people use their own language, with twists and turns and skillful manipulation, is in itself an art form, but it is an art form that is often totally incomprehensible to an outsider--- I do not mean just a non-native speaker of Javanese, I mean anybody outside the group who can be expected to understand the particular art of language being employed.

Pak Ganja, you are in an almost unique position:- you are an educated man who is also familiar on the deepest level with Javanese culture and society, moreover, you are prepared to talk more or less openly with a whole bunch of ignorant bules.

Please consider how much you have to offer, and whether you are doing yourself a favour, not to mention Javanese culture, by failing to present your knowledge in the most easily understood fashion.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...moreover, you are prepared to talk more or less openly with a whole bunch of ignorant bules.

Hey wait a second....i resemble that remark!
Sorry Ganja, just a little bit of self-deprecating English word play.

[A. G. Maisey]

David---mate---pleeese---don't you start.