My first Dha ....a few questions please

Mark · 13th November 2007, 02:26 PM

Here's one with two dots.

katana · 16th November 2007, 08:08 PM

Thank you Andrew and Mark for your replies.

It has arrived and has not disappointed

Blade is well made and has some age and seems to be laminated but not certain. Minor problem in that the blade is slightly loose and with some pressure could be pulled out of the hilt. Feels nice in the hand, balance toward the tip.
Very fine rattan strips are plaited and then wound around the rattan handle which has a brass 'ferrule'. Using a magnet ...the tang finishes at the same point as the rattan binding.

The blade is 'wedge shaped' in cross section, the spine rather than being flat has been nicely filed into a 'V' (in cross section) with two brass inserts and incised cross hatching. Looks to be a chiselled shallow groove either side of the blade (fuller ?) Some 'scroll like' decoration either end of the 'line' pattern and the three brass inserts at the tip.

Comments and help with possible age and/or clarification that this is Shan would be great, thank you.

Regards David

kronckew · 17th November 2007, 10:44 AM

hi katana,

nice blade, mine is without the inset dots, and does not have fullers and has a flat spine, but the spine grooves and inlays are very similar. mine has (from hilt) 2grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1.5in gap, 2 grooves, 1.5 in gap, 3 grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1 in. gap, 4 grooves.

looks like half your grips rattan rings are missing, they will be fun to replace. if you are not into rattan work, braided string wrapped around & oil varnished could look very similar without being permanent. blade could be re-set into the hilt with cutlers cement (or resin) (Linky ) or pitch, y'all could use nepali laha which is pine rosin, some nice powdered dry dung (for the fibre content) and can be easily heated for removal/re-installation - smells wonderful when heated

. depends on how far you want to go. you could of course give it a light clean & oiling/waxing & leave it alone.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 11:12 AM

Katana,
I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine.

Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank.

The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration.

I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North.

The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled.

Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 11:23 AM

One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used.
None
Brass
Silver
Gold
Gold with enameling

If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family.

I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now

Dan

katana · 17th November 2007, 06:59 PM

Thank you for the great info Kronckew, its appreciated

What do you know of rattan braiding....have you done any? Any tips.

Hi Dan, thank you for the additional, interesting information. I am inclined to agree that the blade has been re-hilted, there seems to be a mismatch with the patina of the blade and that of the handle (the seller assures me that this has been in the family for 60 years so will assume the hilt is at least that old.) Could this blade be late 19thC - early 20 th C ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

............. and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

Yo(Dha) says 'nice sword for collection you have, but ... for ultimate ....light sabre get you must'

kronckew · 17th November 2007, 11:14 PM

never done them in rattan myself, have done them in rope and cordage, the basic knotwork is the simple turks head shown on the linked page. thin rattan strips are soaked in hot water to make them pliable, then the knot is tied & tightened into place. have no idea where you'd get rattan, but as they use it to re-weave chair seats, there must be a craft supplier somewhere on the internet

katana · 18th November 2007, 09:58 PM

Great stuff Kronckew

, on the hilt the strands are about 1mm wide (1/25th of an inch) it has the look and feel of rattan but I am not certain. To cut rattan into strips 1mm wide seems a skilled process, unless a tool/jig is used.
Failing that, I am wondering whether I could finish the handle in Ray skin...but I am not certain if that would be 'acceptable' ...as I would like to keep the repairs as close to its ethnic origins as possible.

Regards

16th November 2007, 08:08 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Andrew and Mark for your replies. It has arrived and has not disappointed Blade is well made and has some age and seems to be laminated but not certain. Minor problem in that the blade is slightly loose and with some pressure could be pulled out of the hilt. Feels nice in the hand, balance toward the tip. Very fine rattan strips are plaited and then wound around the rattan handle which has a brass 'ferrule'. Using a magnet ...the tang finishes at the same point as the rattan binding. The blade is 'wedge shaped' in cross section, the spine rather than being flat has been nicely filed into a 'V' (in cross section) with two brass inserts and incised cross hatching. Looks to be a chiselled shallow groove either side of the blade (fuller ?) Some 'scroll like' decoration either end of the 'line' pattern and the three brass inserts at the tip. Comments and help with possible age and/or clarification that this is Shan would be great, thank you. Regards David Attached Images

17th November 2007, 10:44 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	hi katana, nice blade, mine is without the inset dots, and does not have fullers and has a flat spine, but the spine grooves and inlays are very similar. mine has (from hilt) 2grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1.5in gap, 2 grooves, 1.5 in gap, 3 grooves, brass inlay, three grooves, 1 in. gap, 4 grooves. looks like half your grips rattan rings are missing, they will be fun to replace. if you are not into rattan work, braided string wrapped around & oil varnished could look very similar without being permanent. blade could be re-set into the hilt with cutlers cement (or resin) (Linky ) or pitch, y'all could use nepali laha which is pine rosin, some nice powdered dry dung (for the fibre content) and can be easily heated for removal/re-installation - smells wonderful when heated . depends on how far you want to go. you could of course give it a light clean & oiling/waxing & leave it alone. Last edited by kronckew; 17th November 2007 at 11:02 AM.

17th November 2007, 11:12 AM	#4
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Shan or Northern Thailand Katana, I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine. Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank. The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration. I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North. The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled. Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side Dan

17th November 2007, 11:23 AM	#5
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	One more note One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used. None Brass Silver Gold Gold with enameling If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family. I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now Dan

13th November 2007, 02:26 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Here's one with two dots.

17th November 2007, 11:14 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	never done them in rattan myself, have done them in rope and cordage, the basic knotwork is the simple turks head shown on the linked page. thin rattan strips are soaked in hot water to make them pliable, then the knot is tied & tightened into place. have no idea where you'd get rattan, but as they use it to re-weave chair seats, there must be a craft supplier somewhere on the internet

18th November 2007, 09:58 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Great stuff Kronckew , on the hilt the strands are about 1mm wide (1/25th of an inch) it has the look and feel of rattan but I am not certain. To cut rattan into strips 1mm wide seems a skilled process, unless a tool/jig is used. Failing that, I am wondering whether I could finish the handle in Ray skin...but I am not certain if that would be 'acceptable' ...as I would like to keep the repairs as close to its ethnic origins as possible. Regards