Scottish Dirk from Anne

t_c · 8th November 2007, 06:19 AM

That's a nice little blade.
I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name?

Rand:
I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2007, 01:42 PM

Nice little useful knife Bill.

I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though!

Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.)

I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat.

If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job.

TC,
Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws.

Richard.

David · 8th November 2007, 01:59 PM

Lemmy, i am surprised that no one has commented yet on your sgian dubh. Really beautiful job. thanks for showing it.

What are it's demensions?

spiral · 8th November 2007, 02:24 PM

Its a lovely old piece Bill...

Fellows, Shear steel is steel made from carbonised iron bars that were then sheared in half & forge welded together. It was the traditional steel in for British swords & knives before cast steel was invented.{it was still used for some select knives by a couple of makers makers up untill early 20th century.}

So essentialy it a European damascus steel , that was never designed to be etched. It was forge welded to get the desired qualitys, then highly polished.If the pattern showed it was regarded as poor workmanship.

If the rods were cut & folded twice its "double shear steel." That was usualy used for butchers & abatoir knives.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2007, 06:39 PM

Excellent explanation on the shear steel Spiral! I was wondering more on that as it was mentioned, and yours was exactly the kind of info I was hoping for.
This definitely eliminates my visual of using old scissor blades!

I reviewing the thread I must agree with David, Lemmy's sgian dubh is indeed a beautiful example!!! These intriguing knives are definitely now on my Christmas list!

The 'dhub' in the term as noted denotes black or dark, and has more to do with the term dark in the 'hidden' connotation as 'in darkness'. These small daggers were apparantly often worn near the pit of the arm in a small sheath, and as a mark of good faith were typically moved to the stocking in plain view when in good company. Eventually during the 'Romantic Period' of Victorian times, the sgian dubh became a standard element of Scottish regalia worn in the stocking.

It is true that the extremely dark bogwood or other dark wood was often used in the hilts of these, and these were mostly for dress or more formal wear. The antlers or lighter hilts I understand were considered more for utility or day wear.

While on the topic of wood used for Scottish hilts, I am curious whether the 'dudgeon' wood that became descriptive in reference to a particular type of Scottish dagger or knife might have also found use in these. The different terms for these woods is puzzling, and I believe boxwood is another term for the dudgeon.

Best regards,
Jim

A. G. Maisey · 8th November 2007, 09:39 PM

This knife of Bill's is a very nice, and quite elderly piece, but I do not believe that it can be named as either a dirk or a sgian dubh.

The Scottish dirk seems to owe its origin to the ballock knife and dudgeon dagger, the first distinctively Scottish variation of this form probably occurred in the 16th century, but the earliest dated examples of the Scottish variation only date from the early 17th century. One of the distinctive features of dudgeon daggers and ballock knives is the blade, which is not offset from the hilt, but continues in a straight line with it. The blades of even early dirks appear to be uniformly symmetrical, however, even though this blade symmetry is not always present in the sgian dubh, the hilt of the sgian dubh is invariably not offset from the blade.

The sgian dubh appeared later than the dirk, and the first appearance of it in a work of art appears to be in an 1806 portrait by Reaburn. The fore-runner of the sgian dubh was very possibly the oxter knife, or sgian achlais, which was worn inside the jacket, under the left armpit. It was only when the sgian achlis moved from the left armpit, to the right stocking that it became known as the sgian dubh. In fact, the sgian dubh is not a part of the old Highland inheritance, but rather a product of the romantic Celtic era of the early 19th century.

Another theory for the origin of the sgian dubh is that it was an adaptation of the smaller of the two knives used for field dressing of game. These knives were purely work knives, used by the lord's gamekeeper, and were known as gralloch knives.

As to whether the name sgian dubh refers to the supposedly dark nature of the knife, or to its colour, it seems that historians of Scottish weaponry have not yet reached agreement.

As noted above, one of the identifying features of both dirk and sgian dubh is that the hilt is centrally mounted to the blade.

Bill's knife has an offset blade, thus it cannot be either a small dirk, nor a large sgian dubh.

It is too small to be the larger of a set of gralloch knives, and of an inconvenient form to serve as a skinning knife, which was the function of the smaller of the gralloch knives.

In my opinion it is a good quality 19th century knife by a Scottish maker, probably intended as a general purpose field knife.

I am not expert in the field of Scottish weaponry, and in fact know almost nothing about it, however, some years ago I made a number of sgian dubh, and to ensure accuracy of what I made I researched this little knife. Before writing the above I referenced my source again:- Forman---The Scottish Dirk---ISBN 0-919316-26-3.

Incidentally, yes, dark boxwood was known as "dudgeon", and was the most popular wood used for the hilt of the ballock dagger. Shakespeare and Ben Jonson began using the term "dudgeon dagger" to refer to ballock knives.

lemmythesmith · 8th November 2007, 10:12 PM

Hi David, my sghian dubh is about 7" overall, total weight about 2 ounces for that lightweight, won't drag your sock down feel

I've read somewhere that ivy root was apparently also used for ballock knife hilts.

Another possible origin of the sghian dubh is that after the '45 the Scots were disarmed by the English, and highlanders being highlanders ("they spend all their time in war and when there are no wars they fight one another") wanted to be armed so a small utility knife was carried, as Alan said, under the armpit or oxter-this knife evolved into the sghian dubh we know today.

8th November 2007, 01:42 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Black Knife Nice little useful knife Bill. I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though! Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.) I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat. If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job. TC, Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws. Richard.

8th November 2007, 06:19 AM	#1
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	That's a nice little blade. I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name? Rand: I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

8th November 2007, 01:59 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Lemmy, i am surprised that no one has commented yet on your sgian dubh. Really beautiful job. thanks for showing it. What are it's demensions?

8th November 2007, 02:24 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Its a lovely old piece Bill... Fellows, Shear steel is steel made from carbonised iron bars that were then sheared in half & forge welded together. It was the traditional steel in for British swords & knives before cast steel was invented.{it was still used for some select knives by a couple of makers makers up untill early 20th century.} So essentialy it a European damascus steel , that was never designed to be etched. It was forge welded to get the desired qualitys, then highly polished.If the pattern showed it was regarded as poor workmanship. If the rods were cut & folded twice its "double shear steel." That was usualy used for butchers & abatoir knives. Spiral

8th November 2007, 06:39 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Excellent explanation on the shear steel Spiral! I was wondering more on that as it was mentioned, and yours was exactly the kind of info I was hoping for. This definitely eliminates my visual of using old scissor blades! I reviewing the thread I must agree with David, Lemmy's sgian dubh is indeed a beautiful example!!! These intriguing knives are definitely now on my Christmas list! The 'dhub' in the term as noted denotes black or dark, and has more to do with the term dark in the 'hidden' connotation as 'in darkness'. These small daggers were apparantly often worn near the pit of the arm in a small sheath, and as a mark of good faith were typically moved to the stocking in plain view when in good company. Eventually during the 'Romantic Period' of Victorian times, the sgian dubh became a standard element of Scottish regalia worn in the stocking. It is true that the extremely dark bogwood or other dark wood was often used in the hilts of these, and these were mostly for dress or more formal wear. The antlers or lighter hilts I understand were considered more for utility or day wear. While on the topic of wood used for Scottish hilts, I am curious whether the 'dudgeon' wood that became descriptive in reference to a particular type of Scottish dagger or knife might have also found use in these. The different terms for these woods is puzzling, and I believe boxwood is another term for the dudgeon. Best regards, Jim

8th November 2007, 09:39 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	This knife of Bill's is a very nice, and quite elderly piece, but I do not believe that it can be named as either a dirk or a sgian dubh. The Scottish dirk seems to owe its origin to the ballock knife and dudgeon dagger, the first distinctively Scottish variation of this form probably occurred in the 16th century, but the earliest dated examples of the Scottish variation only date from the early 17th century. One of the distinctive features of dudgeon daggers and ballock knives is the blade, which is not offset from the hilt, but continues in a straight line with it. The blades of even early dirks appear to be uniformly symmetrical, however, even though this blade symmetry is not always present in the sgian dubh, the hilt of the sgian dubh is invariably not offset from the blade. The sgian dubh appeared later than the dirk, and the first appearance of it in a work of art appears to be in an 1806 portrait by Reaburn. The fore-runner of the sgian dubh was very possibly the oxter knife, or sgian achlais, which was worn inside the jacket, under the left armpit. It was only when the sgian achlis moved from the left armpit, to the right stocking that it became known as the sgian dubh. In fact, the sgian dubh is not a part of the old Highland inheritance, but rather a product of the romantic Celtic era of the early 19th century. Another theory for the origin of the sgian dubh is that it was an adaptation of the smaller of the two knives used for field dressing of game. These knives were purely work knives, used by the lord's gamekeeper, and were known as gralloch knives. As to whether the name sgian dubh refers to the supposedly dark nature of the knife, or to its colour, it seems that historians of Scottish weaponry have not yet reached agreement. As noted above, one of the identifying features of both dirk and sgian dubh is that the hilt is centrally mounted to the blade. Bill's knife has an offset blade, thus it cannot be either a small dirk, nor a large sgian dubh. It is too small to be the larger of a set of gralloch knives, and of an inconvenient form to serve as a skinning knife, which was the function of the smaller of the gralloch knives. In my opinion it is a good quality 19th century knife by a Scottish maker, probably intended as a general purpose field knife. I am not expert in the field of Scottish weaponry, and in fact know almost nothing about it, however, some years ago I made a number of sgian dubh, and to ensure accuracy of what I made I researched this little knife. Before writing the above I referenced my source again:- Forman---The Scottish Dirk---ISBN 0-919316-26-3. Incidentally, yes, dark boxwood was known as "dudgeon", and was the most popular wood used for the hilt of the ballock dagger. Shakespeare and Ben Jonson began using the term "dudgeon dagger" to refer to ballock knives.

8th November 2007, 10:12 PM	#7
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi David, my sghian dubh is about 7" overall, total weight about 2 ounces for that lightweight, won't drag your sock down feel I've read somewhere that ivy root was apparently also used for ballock knife hilts. Another possible origin of the sghian dubh is that after the '45 the Scots were disarmed by the English, and highlanders being highlanders ("they spend all their time in war and when there are no wars they fight one another") wanted to be armed so a small utility knife was carried, as Alan said, under the armpit or oxter-this knife evolved into the sghian dubh we know today.