Shi - Hutu sword Rwanda?

Bill M · 3rd November 2007, 04:06 PM

Just got this neat African sword. it is 24" overall length. I need to rewrap the wire on the scabbard tip. The very ends of the scabbard and hilt are copper.

Thanks Lew for helping me get this!

I have always been curious. What is the black stuff I see on so many African blades. Looks like tar.

Comments?

fernando · 3rd November 2007, 04:50 PM

Hi Bill
Nice piece.
Do you mean the stuff that holds the blade to the hilt ?
Pitch or tar !
I see they seem to use this as a gum to fix blades also in the East ... Like, for instance, Omani janbiyyas, Indian tulwars and so.

Second thaught
I now don't think you meant that, but the dark "paint" on the blades

.
Please forget my aproach

.
Fdernando

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2007, 06:41 PM

Very nice. I need one of these so badly it disturbs my sleep

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2007, 09:26 PM

Bill. The black stuff on the blade is what is known as iron scale a natural carbon layer due to heating and forging. Most often in many parts of the world this is physically removed to achieve polished bare metal. Shiny things seem to have a instinctive appeal. Personally I like the play of black iron scale against polished metal. I also like to see the hammer work. I feel that in much African work the actual hammering is done not just to form the blade but also to appear pleasing to the eye when one takes the time to look. I could be talking out of my

.

I have found this from a definition site, not to say it does not contain carbon also-
Iron scale, the thin film which on the surface of wrought
iron in the process of forging. It consists essentially of
the magnetic oxide of iron, Fe3O4>.

Matt Splatt · 3rd November 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi Bill, congrats on the sword its a very nice one. As far as the black stuff on the blade goes I think it's old dried up fetish material. I don't know about the Hutu but I have read about the "magical" substances that many tribes apply to their weapons. I found an interesting tidbit that might apply in African Arms and Armour by Christopher Spring on page 91. "In some parts of Central Africa such as Rwanda it has been recorded (Bourgeois 1957) that in order to prevent herself from becoming pregnant before marriage, a young woman may supply a boy with some of her menstrual fluid to be applied to the blade of a spear. It is believed that this powerful combination of symbolic sterility will act as an effective contraceptive." I hope not to gross you out but I think if we are going to engage in the ethnographic study of these beautiful old arms it is important to take an unflinching look at aspects of their use that our societies might find gruesome.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2007, 10:13 PM

It is interesting how this exotic view has taken such a strong hold, not the first time raised. Just look closely at the blade and one can see this blackness "darkness

" has not been applied or rubbed on.

Matt Splatt · 3rd November 2007, 10:52 PM

Now that you mention it and under closer observation I would tend to agree with you in this case, Tim. I have alot of pieces however that have layers of ancient dried gunk on them. Jean Pierre Hallet wrote about it a bit in Congo Kitabo, I have a copy some where and if I can find it I will relate what he had to say.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2007, 11:01 PM

Matt I am sure that many potions were often applied to a great many potent artifacts weapons being one. In the cases we see on weapons like this it is iron scale which incidental also protects against rust but is most probably used in a decorative manner firstly and perhaps to not reflect sun light?

This has nothing to do with the subject but on other weapon sites people often sign off with a ditty so I will say "was it fate that Jackson's second name rhymed so well with b------s"

Bill M · 4th November 2007, 01:30 AM

I am familiar with fetish material that could be a lot of things, most of them organic, blood, milk, dung, chewed betel nuts, palm oil that has dried and gotten "crusty" but this really looks like tar. Perhaps something like paint?

It is not unpleasant and actually adds to the appearance of the blade.

I also wonder how they got such good work with some of the incredibly primitive forges and tools.

Tim Simmons · 4th November 2007, 10:31 AM

I like this black white thing. This seme tip has a small approx 12cm long patch of iron scale as decoration on opposite sides of the blade.

Turn it over and

I really like the hammer marks here I am sure there are left as a decision.

in contrast to this all black Congo spear. The working marks on this remind me of sculping marks in clay.

Bill M · 7th November 2007, 03:55 PM

Pretty sure this is forging scale left on for decoration. I really like the way it looks.

3rd November 2007, 04:06 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Shi - Hutu sword Rwanda? Just got this neat African sword. it is 24" overall length. I need to rewrap the wire on the scabbard tip. The very ends of the scabbard and hilt are copper. Thanks Lew for helping me get this! I have always been curious. What is the black stuff I see on so many African blades. Looks like tar. Comments? Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 4th November 2007 at 01:31 AM.

3rd November 2007, 11:01 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Matt I am sure that many potions were often applied to a great many potent artifacts weapons being one. In the cases we see on weapons like this it is iron scale which incidental also protects against rust but is most probably used in a decorative manner firstly and perhaps to not reflect sun light? This has nothing to do with the subject but on other weapon sites people often sign off with a ditty so I will say "was it fate that Jackson's second name rhymed so well with b------s" Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd November 2007 at 11:16 PM.

4th November 2007, 10:31 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I like this black white thing. This seme tip has a small approx 12cm long patch of iron scale as decoration on opposite sides of the blade. Turn it over and I really like the hammer marks here I am sure there are left as a decision. in contrast to this all black Congo spear. The working marks on this remind me of sculping marks in clay. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 4th November 2007 at 10:46 AM.

3rd November 2007, 04:50 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Bill Nice piece. Do you mean the stuff that holds the blade to the hilt ? Pitch or tar ! I see they seem to use this as a gum to fix blades also in the East ... Like, for instance, Omani janbiyyas, Indian tulwars and so. Second thaught I now don't think you meant that, but the dark "paint" on the blades . Please forget my aproach . Fdernando

3rd November 2007, 06:41 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very nice. I need one of these so badly it disturbs my sleep

3rd November 2007, 09:26 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Bill. The black stuff on the blade is what is known as iron scale a natural carbon layer due to heating and forging. Most often in many parts of the world this is physically removed to achieve polished bare metal. Shiny things seem to have a instinctive appeal. Personally I like the play of black iron scale against polished metal. I also like to see the hammer work. I feel that in much African work the actual hammering is done not just to form the blade but also to appear pleasing to the eye when one takes the time to look. I could be talking out of my . I have found this from a definition site, not to say it does not contain carbon also- Iron scale, the thin film which on the surface of wrought iron in the process of forging. It consists essentially of the magnetic oxide of iron, Fe3O4>.

3rd November 2007, 09:38 PM	#5
Matt Splatt Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 31	Hi Bill, congrats on the sword its a very nice one. As far as the black stuff on the blade goes I think it's old dried up fetish material. I don't know about the Hutu but I have read about the "magical" substances that many tribes apply to their weapons. I found an interesting tidbit that might apply in African Arms and Armour by Christopher Spring on page 91. "In some parts of Central Africa such as Rwanda it has been recorded (Bourgeois 1957) that in order to prevent herself from becoming pregnant before marriage, a young woman may supply a boy with some of her menstrual fluid to be applied to the blade of a spear. It is believed that this powerful combination of symbolic sterility will act as an effective contraceptive." I hope not to gross you out but I think if we are going to engage in the ethnographic study of these beautiful old arms it is important to take an unflinching look at aspects of their use that our societies might find gruesome.

3rd November 2007, 10:13 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	It is interesting how this exotic view has taken such a strong hold, not the first time raised. Just look closely at the blade and one can see this blackness "darkness " has not been applied or rubbed on.

3rd November 2007, 10:52 PM	#7
Matt Splatt Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 31	Now that you mention it and under closer observation I would tend to agree with you in this case, Tim. I have alot of pieces however that have layers of ancient dried gunk on them. Jean Pierre Hallet wrote about it a bit in Congo Kitabo, I have a copy some where and if I can find it I will relate what he had to say.

4th November 2007, 01:30 AM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I am familiar with fetish material that could be a lot of things, most of them organic, blood, milk, dung, chewed betel nuts, palm oil that has dried and gotten "crusty" but this really looks like tar. Perhaps something like paint? It is not unpleasant and actually adds to the appearance of the blade. I also wonder how they got such good work with some of the incredibly primitive forges and tools.

7th November 2007, 03:55 PM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Pretty sure this is forging scale left on for decoration. I really like the way it looks.