Musketeers/ Rifleholders

rand · 26th October 2007, 07:17 PM

Had just received an opinion that the lock was Persian manufacture and dating to about 1845. So took more photo's relating to decoration near hammer on lock and when looking at new photo's enlarged on computer found a signature on the lock! Believe its most likely to be Farsi.

Not sure if gun was made with this lock at date of 1820 that is on barrel, which would certainly be possible. If lock would have put on later the firearm would have needed to have had a flintlock instead of a miquelet lock, that wouldn't be in the Persian taste in 1820 and seems unlikely.

What a fun puzzle to ponder...

rand

rand · 26th October 2007, 07:20 PM

Signature made a little clearer....

rand

fernando · 26th October 2007, 08:16 PM

Hi Rand.
Let me talk some nonsense.
Maybe trying a different aproach, by re focusing the eyes on the piece.
Why not the barrel having being made at an early stage, for flint or miquelete action, and later mounted on a new stock, with a percussion made lock coming with it. This would explain the decoration on the barrel being different than on the lock and tab, as also giving a more plausible date for both lock and barrel.
Fernando

rand · 26th October 2007, 08:37 PM

Hey Fernando,

Don't think you suggestion is nonsense at all, its a definate possibility. Would want to keep in mind that there would be a maker who specialized in locks, another in barrels, another in stocks and so forth.

How would you explain the percussion lock being put onto a stock where a miquelet lock was?

If the lock maker can be identified and be dated nearer the middle of the 19th century that would clear the way for more speculation. Either way its a fascinating puzzle to unfold.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 26th October 2007, 09:43 PM

Rand, you have a fantastic collection – thank you for sharing.

When it comes to tulwars, several people were involved in making them; one made the blade, one the hilt, and one the outline of the decoration and another one made the decoration. Knowing this it is not difficult to see that it is more than likely that several craftsmen have been involved in making such a rifle, and like with the swords, parts of the rifle are likely to have been used, and reused over a longer period.

fernando · 27th October 2007, 08:13 PM

Hi Rand

I know you are completely aware of the following, but here i go:

Usually when you want to convert a flint or miquelete gun into percussion, you adapt the existing lock by taking some parts and changing others, like the cock. This way you leave the old lock plate in its particular stock wood inset.
However some times the only part you want to save is the barrel, due to its quality or sentimental reason and, in such case, the new stock is configured to allocate the new system lock plate. The only actual alteration is on the barrel, that has to receive a new type of fire hole.

I think your gun falls in this second version.

I am posting pictures of both versions, from my junk collection.
The first is a Spanish miquelete hunting gun, very much worn, with very old repairs, converted to percussion. Around 1830 massive quantities of muskets and pistols were converted to percussion, both military and civilian.

The second example is a Portuguese clavina, dating from the Napoleonic invasions, with a ( extremely short ) barrel originated in a flintlock action and later fitted into a barrel with a percussion lock.

Both these modifications were in principle a regional civilian work.

Naturally these pieces had an agitated life and have a long story to tell, but by no means they can compare to your luxury rifle.

Kind regards
Fernando

fernando · 27th October 2007, 08:20 PM

The clavina

rand · 29th October 2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Signature made a little clearer....

rand

Have a translation now for the signature on the lock plate. Was told it was difficult to read, that is not to surprising when you consider the tallest letter is only about 1/8" in height and the entire signature is about 1/4" in width.

Its Farsi and reads," Amal-e Marsim" , translation thanks to Manouchehr

Could not find a reference for this signature, thats not uncommen, most signatures are not cataloged or published. Would have been very helpful to have known what time period this man worked.

rand

archer · 29th October 2007, 09:34 PM

Rand, Here is a shot from Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. Sure looks like a not too distant relative of your piece.
Regards, Steve

rand · 30th October 2007, 06:13 AM

Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting the photo's of the firearms in Topkapi Palace. They are both Turkish, the firearm below is a miquelet lock mounted on a Turkish stock. The rifle on the top has a flintlock action mounted on a European style stock. Both rifles are profusely ornamented with Turkish designs and most likely all parts are Turkish manufacture.

The Miquelet lock was the predecessor of the flintlock but never took hold in the Islamic countries where the miquelet lock remained the action of choice. This may because it had fewer parts making it more servicable.

The percussion lock was a huge jump in reliability and safety, it would have been very sought after by those that knew about it.

rand

26th October 2007, 07:17 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Signature on Lock Farsi? Had just received an opinion that the lock was Persian manufacture and dating to about 1845. So took more photo's relating to decoration near hammer on lock and when looking at new photo's enlarged on computer found a signature on the lock! Believe its most likely to be Farsi. Not sure if gun was made with this lock at date of 1820 that is on barrel, which would certainly be possible. If lock would have put on later the firearm would have needed to have had a flintlock instead of a miquelet lock, that wouldn't be in the Persian taste in 1820 and seems unlikely. What a fun puzzle to ponder... rand Attached Images

26th October 2007, 07:20 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Signature a little clearer Signature made a little clearer.... rand Attached Images

26th October 2007, 08:37 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Its a possiblity Hey Fernando, Don't think you suggestion is nonsense at all, its a definate possibility. Would want to keep in mind that there would be a maker who specialized in locks, another in barrels, another in stocks and so forth. How would you explain the percussion lock being put onto a stock where a miquelet lock was? If the lock maker can be identified and be dated nearer the middle of the 19th century that would clear the way for more speculation. Either way its a fascinating puzzle to unfold. rand Attached Images

27th October 2007, 08:13 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rand I know you are completely aware of the following, but here i go: Usually when you want to convert a flint or miquelete gun into percussion, you adapt the existing lock by taking some parts and changing others, like the cock. This way you leave the old lock plate in its particular stock wood inset. However some times the only part you want to save is the barrel, due to its quality or sentimental reason and, in such case, the new stock is configured to allocate the new system lock plate. The only actual alteration is on the barrel, that has to receive a new type of fire hole. I think your gun falls in this second version. I am posting pictures of both versions, from my junk collection. The first is a Spanish miquelete hunting gun, very much worn, with very old repairs, converted to percussion. Around 1830 massive quantities of muskets and pistols were converted to percussion, both military and civilian. The second example is a Portuguese clavina, dating from the Napoleonic invasions, with a ( extremely short ) barrel originated in a flintlock action and later fitted into a barrel with a percussion lock. Both these modifications were in principle a regional civilian work. Naturally these pieces had an agitated life and have a long story to tell, but by no means they can compare to your luxury rifle. Kind regards Fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 27th October 2007 at 09:12 PM.

27th October 2007, 08:20 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The clavina Attached Images

26th October 2007, 08:16 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rand. Let me talk some nonsense. Maybe trying a different aproach, by re focusing the eyes on the piece. Why not the barrel having being made at an early stage, for flint or miquelete action, and later mounted on a new stock, with a percussion made lock coming with it. This would explain the decoration on the barrel being different than on the lock and tab, as also giving a more plausible date for both lock and barrel. Fernando

26th October 2007, 09:43 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rand, you have a fantastic collection – thank you for sharing. When it comes to tulwars, several people were involved in making them; one made the blade, one the hilt, and one the outline of the decoration and another one made the decoration. Knowing this it is not difficult to see that it is more than likely that several craftsmen have been involved in making such a rifle, and like with the swords, parts of the rifle are likely to have been used, and reused over a longer period.

29th October 2007, 09:34 PM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Persian Musketeers/Rifleholder(?) Rand, Here is a shot from Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. Sure looks like a not too distant relative of your piece. Regards, Steve Attached Images

30th October 2007, 06:13 AM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Turkish Rifles Hi Steve, Thanks for posting the photo's of the firearms in Topkapi Palace. They are both Turkish, the firearm below is a miquelet lock mounted on a Turkish stock. The rifle on the top has a flintlock action mounted on a European style stock. Both rifles are profusely ornamented with Turkish designs and most likely all parts are Turkish manufacture. The Miquelet lock was the predecessor of the flintlock but never took hold in the Islamic countries where the miquelet lock remained the action of choice. This may because it had fewer parts making it more servicable. The percussion lock was a huge jump in reliability and safety, it would have been very sought after by those that knew about it. rand