A worthy kattar for comment

Lew · 14th March 2005, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Lew,

Nice katar display, I really like the old blades

.
Are the side guards decorated at all?
Are the side guards watered?
Are any of the katars marked - maybe with dot marking?

Jens

Hi Jens

To answer your questions the katars are all quite plain with no decorations on the guards, the center one has a museum or armoury marking on the side bar and only the center katar seems to have wootz side bars that travel down as far to the grips. I will let you know about the markings later today.
The small one on the right had something like hunters knife written in Hindi on it when it first arrived but it was in poor shaped so I had Al Pendray do a little restoration on it. Jens the center katar has a M 11 stamped on the side bar?

Lew

Ann Feuerbach · 14th March 2005, 07:15 PM

Montino ...you do know how to tempt a girl...with curry recipies...living in London got me hooked...Dansak... The renewing solution is not a trade secret but I do not want to give it out until I publish it. Right now I have two papers with the Historical Metallurgy Society (who funded the research). One paper is on the history of etching, the second is on the new method. I hope to publish the second article in a Conservation journal in the near future, the other article in Journal of HMS if they want it. I think they meet in March so I hope to hear from them soonish. It is based on a Tannic acid solution, which does not etch but reacts differently to iron-carbon phases.
Gene, I am getting supplies together so I will be in touch shortly. I should be able to start working on your objects in May.
Ann

Lew · 14th March 2005, 08:05 PM

Hi Anne

I have experimented with tannic acids and have found that they work great for bluing the blades but they really don't make the wootz pattern pop out that much. I usually use a 3 parts water 1 part ferric chloride. This mixture does a good job and the more diluted solution does not corrode the blade. You can use baking soda to help neutralize the etchant after it is applied. I find there are differences in the way certain types of wootz etch. The Indian wootz has a more gray low contrast look while the persian wootz seems more refined and has a more blue/black look to it. I spoke with Mr. Pendray about this and one opinion is that the persians bought the igots from India and some how refined them through forging and heat treatment.

Regards,

Lew

B.I · 15th March 2005, 12:22 AM

hi,
i think jens' contribution has been a little overlooked. to find a direct location for indian decoration is almost impossible, as most that lend towards indian arms will agree.
hendley spent many years of his life in india, whilst assuming relatively high, important roles in indian society, studying indian decoration. his interest was not so much in antique style, but more in the 'modern' day practice of an old legacy. in his volumous works, he left a fingerprint of decorative style which we can associate with almost definate certainty. in his studies, he worked alongside the decorators of the age and recorded them well.
this decoration, as jens has found, seems to stem from the khota region. there are not many pieces in private collections, nor in internationally acclaimed museums that can claim such certainty. well spotted and stated!! this style of decoration ought to be noted as we has now seen a definate example, wheres as before we had but a good illustraion. there may be in existence variations of this style which we can assume hail from the same region, but i would be surprised if anyone can now doubt the origin of this piece.

Ann Feuerbach · 16th March 2005, 06:43 PM

Hi Lew,
Yes the tannic acid solution does not make the pattern pop out as much, but from a conservation (museum) point of view, ferric chloride is not an acceptable method. Even with neutralization. With this process, we do not use water. I have also found a method to give a great golden sheen. I am still working on that one, but it is beautiful. 99% of curators would not let a conservator use ferric or nitric acid.
On another note, I have done extensive research on the different between wootz and pulad. It seems that the difference in the pattern is initally due to the fact that the indians take out the ingot while liquid and the solidification and cooling is very fast, which produces small dendrites. In the persian pulad process, they ingots solidify and cool slowly, thus producing large dendrites. From Verhoeven et al reserach, the cementite aligns along the impurities from the dendrite formation, thus big dendrites, coarser pattern vs faster cooling, smaller dendrites, finer pattern. However, final forging and trace and minor elements also plays a part.
Ann

Ann Feuerbach · 16th March 2005, 06:45 PM

Oh, I forgot, also the Persians added Mn to the mixture, which probably accounts for the darker phase contrast.

Montino Bourbon · 17th March 2005, 04:48 AM

Just a thought; what would happen if the ingot was allowed to cool in a strong magnetic field? Would the dendrites align with the field?

Something for the experimenters to try!

17th March 2005, 04:48 AM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	magnetically-influenced wootz Just a thought; what would happen if the ingot was allowed to cool in a strong magnetic field? Would the dendrites align with the field? Something for the experimenters to try!

14th March 2005, 07:15 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Montino ...you do know how to tempt a girl...with curry recipies...living in London got me hooked...Dansak... The renewing solution is not a trade secret but I do not want to give it out until I publish it. Right now I have two papers with the Historical Metallurgy Society (who funded the research). One paper is on the history of etching, the second is on the new method. I hope to publish the second article in a Conservation journal in the near future, the other article in Journal of HMS if they want it. I think they meet in March so I hope to hear from them soonish. It is based on a Tannic acid solution, which does not etch but reacts differently to iron-carbon phases. Gene, I am getting supplies together so I will be in touch shortly. I should be able to start working on your objects in May. Ann

14th March 2005, 08:05 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Anne I have experimented with tannic acids and have found that they work great for bluing the blades but they really don't make the wootz pattern pop out that much. I usually use a 3 parts water 1 part ferric chloride. This mixture does a good job and the more diluted solution does not corrode the blade. You can use baking soda to help neutralize the etchant after it is applied. I find there are differences in the way certain types of wootz etch. The Indian wootz has a more gray low contrast look while the persian wootz seems more refined and has a more blue/black look to it. I spoke with Mr. Pendray about this and one opinion is that the persians bought the igots from India and some how refined them through forging and heat treatment. Regards, Lew

15th March 2005, 12:22 AM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, i think jens' contribution has been a little overlooked. to find a direct location for indian decoration is almost impossible, as most that lend towards indian arms will agree. hendley spent many years of his life in india, whilst assuming relatively high, important roles in indian society, studying indian decoration. his interest was not so much in antique style, but more in the 'modern' day practice of an old legacy. in his volumous works, he left a fingerprint of decorative style which we can associate with almost definate certainty. in his studies, he worked alongside the decorators of the age and recorded them well. this decoration, as jens has found, seems to stem from the khota region. there are not many pieces in private collections, nor in internationally acclaimed museums that can claim such certainty. well spotted and stated!! this style of decoration ought to be noted as we has now seen a definate example, wheres as before we had but a good illustraion. there may be in existence variations of this style which we can assume hail from the same region, but i would be surprised if anyone can now doubt the origin of this piece.

16th March 2005, 06:43 PM	#5
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi Lew, Yes the tannic acid solution does not make the pattern pop out as much, but from a conservation (museum) point of view, ferric chloride is not an acceptable method. Even with neutralization. With this process, we do not use water. I have also found a method to give a great golden sheen. I am still working on that one, but it is beautiful. 99% of curators would not let a conservator use ferric or nitric acid. On another note, I have done extensive research on the different between wootz and pulad. It seems that the difference in the pattern is initally due to the fact that the indians take out the ingot while liquid and the solidification and cooling is very fast, which produces small dendrites. In the persian pulad process, they ingots solidify and cool slowly, thus producing large dendrites. From Verhoeven et al reserach, the cementite aligns along the impurities from the dendrite formation, thus big dendrites, coarser pattern vs faster cooling, smaller dendrites, finer pattern. However, final forging and trace and minor elements also plays a part. Ann

16th March 2005, 06:45 PM	#6
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Oh, I forgot, also the Persians added Mn to the mixture, which probably accounts for the darker phase contrast.