A Bugis keris for comments

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 06:26 AM

Since we are still dicussing sampirs, can anyone tell me where does this sheath originated from?

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 08:05 AM

This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt?

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt?

Rasdan - The sampir looks Buginese, the hilt looks more Straits type sea sword handle. (Ref. Frey's The Kris -Kris Archives, pg.58).

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 09:25 AM

There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred.

I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped.

There you have it -- the whole conundrum.

As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe.

On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

rahman · 14th March 2005, 09:25 AM

Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion:

Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know

Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces.

But I'm only a beginner...

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 09:30 AM

That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this.

But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 10:53 AM

Links to reference site, hopefully can help to understand the Bugis history and culture, a little.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/bugis.htm

Sumatra Keris
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...matrakeris.htm

The Kris (by Edward Frey), Kris Archive section.
page 66 - Sumatra-Bugis kerises
page 67 - Sulawesi-Bugis kerises

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

But this gold keris is dressed new.

How new do u presume Blu? I heard that the wire works like that would at least be 100 years old.

Raja Muda · 14th March 2005, 12:47 PM

Hi RSword,

I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 01:30 PM

I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely.

The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

Bugis Keris · 4th April 2014, 07:13 PM

This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak.
in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk.

Thank YOU

kerisbiz · 7th June 2017, 03:42 PM

This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes
I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations...

14th March 2005, 06:26 AM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sampir... Since we are still dicussing sampirs, can anyone tell me where does this sheath originated from? Attached Images Last edited by Alam Shah; 14th March 2005 at 02:52 PM.

14th March 2005, 08:05 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt? Attached Images

14th March 2005, 10:53 AM	#7
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Resources - reference Links to reference site, hopefully can help to understand the Bugis history and culture, a little. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/utilities/bugis.htm Sumatra Keris http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...matrakeris.htm The Kris (by Edward Frey), Kris Archive section. page 66 - Sumatra-Bugis kerises page 67 - Sulawesi-Bugis kerises Last edited by Alam Shah; 15th March 2005 at 04:12 AM. Reason: add ref.

14th March 2005, 12:47 PM	#9
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	RSword's keris Hi RSword, I must say I'm still drooling over the first Bugis keris you posted. Just out of curiosity, is the batang covered in gold, gilded silver or brass. How old is the keris and who happens to be the lucky owner. Truly a blade to die for!

7th June 2017, 03:42 PM	#12
kerisbiz Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 15	This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes This is original Bugis Kriss Lamba 15 from Bone, South Celebes I got from veteran soldier WW2... estimate 18 century... from 4 generations... Last edited by David; 7th June 2017 at 04:03 PM.

14th March 2005, 09:25 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred. I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped. There you have it -- the whole conundrum. As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe. On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

14th March 2005, 09:25 AM	#5
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion: Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces. But I'm only a beginner...

14th March 2005, 09:30 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this. But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.

14th March 2005, 01:30 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I reckon the gold work to be 20th century work, which if we really stretch it back, would be about 100years, but maybe the middle ground of 50years is more likely. The reason why I think the gold work is new is because we don't see similarly elaborately gold-worked Malay/Bugis examples on older pieces in books. There are gold pendok and pendokos, but not with all these gold filigree, and so much of it. I always have the idea that pre-20th century kerises wear gold a lot more sparingly than post-20th century equivalents. Also, the older gold kerises use lower-purity gold (9-14k) whereas the examples we see in the pics here are unabashedly high carat shiny yellow gold.

4th April 2014, 07:13 PM	#11
Bugis Keris Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Indonesia Samarinda Kalimantan Timur Bugis Posts: 15	This Kriss From North Sumatera. and this kriss familiar own by Batakness culture one culture of in indonesia in familiar with kriss is batak. in usually the owner of this kriss in batak culture call Datuk. Thank YOU