THE OLDEST KNOWN YATAGHAN!!!!

rand · 8th October 2007, 05:58 AM

Hello Ariel,

Believe there are at least three more known early yataghans, one is now at the Metropoliten Museum of Art and from the same workshop, another is now at the exhibit in France was was made for Bayezid II (?), then is one more and the best of all of them with a one piece solid gold scabbard carved in three dimensions also made for Bayuzid II owned by the same collector.

These threee yataghans came from the same sale in LA about 28 years ago from the Mr Ingram collection. They were a gift from T E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) to his friend Mr Ingram (Hollywood director) before his death. They were sent to auction by Mrs Ingram after her husbands death, prior to that she was hoping to receive the sum of $10,000 for the entire collection.

Sultan Suleyman the Lawgivers yataghan is either at Topkapi or the Military Museum in Turkey.

rand

rand · 9th October 2007, 03:05 AM

Hey Ariel,

Here are a couple photo's I took about 28 years ago of the yataghan for Beyuzid II now on display at the Louve.

rand

rand · 9th October 2007, 03:16 AM

Hey Ariel,

There is on more yataghan from this royal workshop, one at the Met, one at the exhibition in France, the one of the photo I posted, there is also one one with a completely solid gold scabbard that is the best of the four.

These are the four I know of, have handled three of them.......

rand

Emanuel · 11th March 2010, 03:15 PM

Don't think I've seen this before. I was struck by how "Indian" this yataghan looks, particularly the floral decoration. Any chance of a close-up scan?
The bolster is practically of khukri type.

So eastern movement of the Macedonian/Greek kopis, eastern development, and a western return as yataghan.

Greek kopis/machaira -> Indian adoption, mixed with local experimentation -> sosoun pata and khukri -> yataghan.

Thoughts...

TVV · 11th March 2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Don't think I've seen this before. I was struck by how "Indian" this yataghan looks, particularly the floral decoration. Any chance of a close-up scan?
The bolster is practically of khukri type.

So eastern movement of the Macedonian/Greek kopis, eastern development, and a western return as yataghan.

Greek kopis/machaira -> Indian adoption, mixed with local experimentation -> sosoun pata and khukri -> yataghan.

Thoughts...

I respectfully disagree, and so does Dr. Elgood - there are no central Asian yataghans, and it seems the form simply never disappeared from the Balkans.

Regards,
Teodor

Emanuel · 11th March 2010, 07:04 PM

Hi Teodor,

I unfortunately don't have Elgood's newest book yet. Are you referring to the karakulak knives in the Balkans?

It's just that the yataghan posted here has features very similar to Indian weapons, and is actually fairly different from the karakulaks I've seen. This one seems to have a separate khukri-like bolster as opposed to the integral variety seen on karakulas.

Looking forward to getting Elgood's book.

All the best,
Emanuel

TVV · 11th March 2010, 07:57 PM

Emanuel,

I would not put too much importance into the bolster, as it is an element found on a whole bunch of knives from throughout the world. I have posted some examples of knives from the Balkans, found with Roman and Byzantine coins, but they generated zero interest.

That being said, I cannot claim with any certainty how the yataghan originated. What we have are 2 theories:

Theory 1: Alexander the Great and his troops introduced the form into Central Asia and Northern India, then it was adopted by the Turks, who brought it back to the Balkans in the 15th century - almost two milleniums later.

Theory 2: The form remained in existence in the Balkans, in utility knives, but was not used for weapons due to other forms being available and preferred, such as the sabre. After the Ottoman conquest and the imposed restrictions on the carrying of arms, long knives with this form made a return as a peasant's weapon, much like the bauerwehr in Central and Western Europe.

We also have some facts:
- The yataghan is always referred to as a knife.
- The earliest examples date from the time immediately after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.
- While there is plenty of evidence that the sabre was introduced everywhere, there were Turks during the middle ages, there are no archaeological finds or pictorial evidence on the existence of yataghans in Central Asia - from Persia to Turkestan and Northern India.

Based on all the above information, we can decide for ourselves individually which theory makes more sense.

Best regards,
Teodor

8th October 2007, 05:58 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Three More Yataghans Hello Ariel, Believe there are at least three more known early yataghans, one is now at the Metropoliten Museum of Art and from the same workshop, another is now at the exhibit in France was was made for Bayezid II (?), then is one more and the best of all of them with a one piece solid gold scabbard carved in three dimensions also made for Bayuzid II owned by the same collector. These threee yataghans came from the same sale in LA about 28 years ago from the Mr Ingram collection. They were a gift from T E Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) to his friend Mr Ingram (Hollywood director) before his death. They were sent to auction by Mrs Ingram after her husbands death, prior to that she was hoping to receive the sum of $10,000 for the entire collection. Sultan Suleyman the Lawgivers yataghan is either at Topkapi or the Military Museum in Turkey. rand

9th October 2007, 03:05 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Yataghan for Beyuzid II Hey Ariel, Here are a couple photo's I took about 28 years ago of the yataghan for Beyuzid II now on display at the Louve. rand Attached Images

9th October 2007, 03:16 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	One More Hey Ariel, There is on more yataghan from this royal workshop, one at the Met, one at the exhibition in France, the one of the photo I posted, there is also one one with a completely solid gold scabbard that is the best of the four. These are the four I know of, have handled three of them....... rand

11th March 2010, 03:15 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Don't think I've seen this before. I was struck by how "Indian" this yataghan looks, particularly the floral decoration. Any chance of a close-up scan? The bolster is practically of khukri type. So eastern movement of the Macedonian/Greek kopis, eastern development, and a western return as yataghan. Greek kopis/machaira -> Indian adoption, mixed with local experimentation -> sosoun pata and khukri -> yataghan. Thoughts...

11th March 2010, 07:04 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Teodor, I unfortunately don't have Elgood's newest book yet. Are you referring to the karakulak knives in the Balkans? It's just that the yataghan posted here has features very similar to Indian weapons, and is actually fairly different from the karakulaks I've seen. This one seems to have a separate khukri-like bolster as opposed to the integral variety seen on karakulas. Looking forward to getting Elgood's book. All the best, Emanuel

11th March 2010, 07:57 PM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Emanuel, I would not put too much importance into the bolster, as it is an element found on a whole bunch of knives from throughout the world. I have posted some examples of knives from the Balkans, found with Roman and Byzantine coins, but they generated zero interest. That being said, I cannot claim with any certainty how the yataghan originated. What we have are 2 theories: Theory 1: Alexander the Great and his troops introduced the form into Central Asia and Northern India, then it was adopted by the Turks, who brought it back to the Balkans in the 15th century - almost two milleniums later. Theory 2: The form remained in existence in the Balkans, in utility knives, but was not used for weapons due to other forms being available and preferred, such as the sabre. After the Ottoman conquest and the imposed restrictions on the carrying of arms, long knives with this form made a return as a peasant's weapon, much like the bauerwehr in Central and Western Europe. We also have some facts: - The yataghan is always referred to as a knife. - The earliest examples date from the time immediately after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans. - While there is plenty of evidence that the sabre was introduced everywhere, there were Turks during the middle ages, there are no archaeological finds or pictorial evidence on the existence of yataghans in Central Asia - from Persia to Turkestan and Northern India. Based on all the above information, we can decide for ourselves individually which theory makes more sense. Best regards, Teodor