Help Identify - Chinese execution sword?

DaveA · 6th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600).
The device is identical on both sides of the blade.

Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm?

Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword".

If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet.

Ideas?

- Dave

Klas Larsson · 8th October 2007, 11:40 PM

The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords.

The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:31 AM

I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following.
This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold).
The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control.
Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck.
Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory.
Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity.
I can't identify the one on the right, right now.
But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune.
Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic.

Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:57 AM

After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen.
I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic.
One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent.
Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 03:02 AM

Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ".
Yunazhumin

DaveA · 9th October 2007, 05:06 AM

yuanzhumin,

Your comments have been very helpful.

The silver pheasant is one of the symbols used in Mandarin squares (textile emblem on "official" dress) to denote an administrator of the 5th rank.

An idea: perhaps instead of the pheasant we have a phoenix (fenghuang), the yin equivalent of the dragon. Symbolizing peace and joy, it was commonly used as the mark of an empress in imperial China. (China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 By Richard J. Smith)

I have not been able to find a Qing-era symbol for a pheasant or phoenix that resembles the one on this device.

However, I have found two pictures, one from aQing dynasty artifact and another from an antique which strongly resemble two symbols on the brass device; the bat and the deer.

This bat is detail from a Qing formal court robe:

This deer is from an antique jade pendant, possibly from China. (The identical figure also appears in a court robe but I neglected to copy that picture and now I'm having trouble finding the link.)

I think the bat and either the pheasant or phoenix reinforce the notion that this weapon played some role in the formal court or Qing administration.

Just some late night thoughts. I'm no expert, but I can Google with the best of 'em!

Regards,

Dave A.

6th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	larger picture of brass device Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600). The device is identical on both sides of the blade. Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm? Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword". If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet. Ideas? - Dave Last edited by DaveA; 6th October 2007 at 11:07 PM. Reason: add detail

9th October 2007, 02:31 AM	#3
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Typical chinese symbols I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following. This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold). The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control. Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck. Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory. Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity. I can't identify the one on the right, right now. But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune. Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic. Yuanzhumin

9th October 2007, 05:06 AM	#6
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Thank you for your thoughtful posts yuanzhumin, Your comments have been very helpful. The silver pheasant is one of the symbols used in Mandarin squares (textile emblem on "official" dress) to denote an administrator of the 5th rank. An idea: perhaps instead of the pheasant we have a phoenix (fenghuang), the yin equivalent of the dragon. Symbolizing peace and joy, it was commonly used as the mark of an empress in imperial China. (China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 By Richard J. Smith) I have not been able to find a Qing-era symbol for a pheasant or phoenix that resembles the one on this device. However, I have found two pictures, one from aQing dynasty artifact and another from an antique which strongly resemble two symbols on the brass device; the bat and the deer. This bat is detail from a Qing formal court robe: This deer is from an antique jade pendant, possibly from China. (The identical figure also appears in a court robe but I neglected to copy that picture and now I'm having trouble finding the link.) I think the bat and either the pheasant or phoenix reinforce the notion that this weapon played some role in the formal court or Qing administration. Just some late night thoughts. I'm no expert, but I can Google with the best of 'em! Regards, Dave A.

8th October 2007, 11:40 PM	#2
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords. The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

9th October 2007, 02:57 AM	#4
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen. I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic. One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent. Yuanzhumin

9th October 2007, 03:02 AM	#5
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ". Yunazhumin