High Hopes, African Dahomey {razor?}

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 04:53 PM

Thanks Andrew. I still have Africa in the back of my mind especially with reference to the decoration on the copper. I do not think it is a Mak this is not a chopper the blade is light with some flex. Look how similar the bolster is on this and the Ram dao in the link. The is also the similarities in the blade decoration the fuller topped by the crenellation. Googling Kali worship also puts quite a spin on it.

katana · 6th October 2007, 05:21 PM

Stone shows a knife called a Bhuj Kutti, sometimes called an 'elephant knife' described as a heavy (?) single edged knife blade mounted inline with a single straight handle approx 20" long (not specified if OAL or just length of handle). The blade form illustrated is not the same, but there are similarities in the overall construction. I do not have a scanner so cant post the picture;
It is possible that yours is a varient, your pictures suggest that the knife is vintage rather than older, is this the case?

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 05:36 PM

Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key!
Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them.
Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items!

So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions.
I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that.

All the best,

Jim

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2007, 09:19 PM

look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2007, 05:13 AM

OK Tim, whassup???

katana · 10th October 2007, 01:59 PM

How about this....

KNIFE, INCISED DECORATION
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.0/ 7766
Culture: INDIAN, KOTA
Locale: NILGIRI HILLS
Country: INDIA
Material: METAL (STEEL), WOOD (KARPAMARU)
Dimensions: L:40 W:11.4 H:4.2 [in CM]
Donor: MANDELBAUM
Accession No: 1938-57

katana · 10th October 2007, 02:11 PM

Here is another 2 similar examples, smaller with a brass blade

KNIFE, DECORATED
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.2/ 2050
Locale: BORNEO
Material: METAL (BRASS)
Dimensions: L:26 W:11 H:4 [in CM]
Donor: BOULTON
Accession No: 1951-84

KNIFE, DECORATED
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.2/ 2051
Culture: KADAYAN ?
Locale: BORNEO, BRUNEI ?
Material: METAL (BRASS)
Dimensions: L:27 W:14 H:4 [in CM]
Donor: BOULTON
Accession No: 1951-84

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2007, 03:45 PM

Well done David!!! Clearly the knife is Indian. Interestingly the group of aboriginal tribes of the Nilgiris hills the Kota being one of them, besides being the smiths and artisans and the lowest caste largely resisted Hinduism though I do have a book "The Aboriginal Tribes of India. Stephen Fuchs, pub- India 1973 Uk 1977" where it is said that they followed Shiva and other deities. They kept buffalo which were used in ceremonies and eaten. One might expect to find a knife like this for skinning. Skinning has been mentioned before. I can find no reference to blood cults or human sacrifice in the Nilgiris hill though I do not know about times past {these acts could be kept secret} but that is not so for Tamil Nadu and Southern India.

10th October 2007, 01:59 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	How about this.... KNIFE, INCISED DECORATION ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.0/ 7766 Culture: INDIAN, KOTA Locale: NILGIRI HILLS Country: INDIA Material: METAL (STEEL), WOOD (KARPAMARU) Dimensions: L:40 W:11.4 H:4.2 [in CM] Donor: MANDELBAUM Accession No: 1938-57 Attached Images

10th October 2007, 02:11 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here is another 2 similar examples, smaller with a brass blade KNIFE, DECORATED ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.2/ 2050 Locale: BORNEO Material: METAL (BRASS) Dimensions: L:26 W:11 H:4 [in CM] Donor: BOULTON Accession No: 1951-84 KNIFE, DECORATED ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.2/ 2051 Culture: KADAYAN ? Locale: BORNEO, BRUNEI ? Material: METAL (BRASS) Dimensions: L:27 W:14 H:4 [in CM] Donor: BOULTON Accession No: 1951-84 Attached Images

6th October 2007, 04:53 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Thanks Andrew. I still have Africa in the back of my mind especially with reference to the decoration on the copper. I do not think it is a Mak this is not a chopper the blade is light with some flex. Look how similar the bolster is on this and the Ram dao in the link. The is also the similarities in the blade decoration the fuller topped by the crenellation. Googling Kali worship also puts quite a spin on it.

6th October 2007, 05:21 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Stone shows a knife called a Bhuj Kutti, sometimes called an 'elephant knife' described as a heavy (?) single edged knife blade mounted inline with a single straight handle approx 20" long (not specified if OAL or just length of handle). The blade form illustrated is not the same, but there are similarities in the overall construction. I do not have a scanner so cant post the picture; It is possible that yours is a varient, your pictures suggest that the knife is vintage rather than older, is this the case?

6th October 2007, 05:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key! Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them. Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items! So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions. I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that. All the best, Jim

9th October 2007, 09:19 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

10th October 2007, 05:13 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	OK Tim, whassup???

10th October 2007, 03:45 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Well done David!!! Clearly the knife is Indian. Interestingly the group of aboriginal tribes of the Nilgiris hills the Kota being one of them, besides being the smiths and artisans and the lowest caste largely resisted Hinduism though I do have a book "The Aboriginal Tribes of India. Stephen Fuchs, pub- India 1973 Uk 1977" where it is said that they followed Shiva and other deities. They kept buffalo which were used in ceremonies and eaten. One might expect to find a knife like this for skinning. Skinning has been mentioned before. I can find no reference to blood cults or human sacrifice in the Nilgiris hill though I do not know about times past {these acts could be kept secret} but that is not so for Tamil Nadu and Southern India.