High Hopes, African Dahomey {razor?}

katana · 4th October 2007, 12:51 PM

Hi Tim,
interesting item.......I must admit that my first impression is Asian. Is it possible that it could be a pole arm ( ceremonial or functional) that has been shortened ?
When I researched the African short sword I acquired awhile ago ( it seemed likely Dahomney or neighbouring tribes.) I tried to discover common weapon forms of the area, I didn't find any reference to a weapon such as yours. I did read of references to a 'razor' but, from memory, I had the impression that this was a 'simple' blade which folded into a handle. (Sorry no pics) I'll try and find the description with the reference source.

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2007, 04:52 PM

Tim,
Nothing wrong with 'flights of fantasy'!

and with the unusual blade on this I can appreciate your inclination toward the somewhat distinct Dahomean blades found on the swords termed 'hwi'. It seems that one of these ceremonial weapons has similar crenallated blade back, but I cannot recall specifically and the reference is not at hand. It is shown in "Sabres Decores du Dahomey" (Palau Marti, 1967, but unfortunately cannot recall specific publication it appeared in, check bibliography in Spring for exact reference).

I recall the references to 'razors' in the book by Edgerton and some time ago was trying to determine more on this unusual weapons description as well. As you note the weapon in that book is listed as about 18", and I was also hoping for an illustration.

Burton (Book of the Sword, 1884) discusses these on p.168-69 from his observations in his trip to Dahomey in 1863, noting the warrior king Gezo, his love of varities of unusual weapons, and of course "...a company of Amazons, called razor women from the 'nyek ple nen toh' blade. This was simply a European razor on a large scale, with a steel of 30" rising from a plain handle of black wood, and kept open by a spring".

While the term 'nyek ple nen toh' is unclear in its exact meaning and is not defined in his copious footnotes, he does note that the reference to these weapons comes from his "Mission to Dahome" and is included with notes 'passim' along with other details. His comparison to a European razor of course held open by a spring with its huge size of 30" sounds questionable. His note sounds 'recollected' from notes some 19 years before, and I did not find evidence of such a collapsible weapon, but would look forward to hearing from anyone who knows of such a weapon in Africa. Since Gezo had such a fascination for unusual weapons and it sounds as if he was out to impress, it seems possible he may have created a number of such pieces in a ceremonial sense, but not necessarily for regular issue.

I am inclined to agree with Katana in his Asian assessment on this piece, as you have also surmised. The long handle reminds me of the dha form, which I defer more on to the Dha Guys! and clearly the incised marking at the blade center corresponds well to the other example knife you have shown.

I like the way you also present examples to show African similarities. Burton also notes the similarities in some weapons from India and Africa, suggesting that they may derive loosely from the same source weapons from Egypt, which of course is entirely plausible in a number of cases and in degree.

I would like to hear more on the Asian potential on this interesting weapon, and look forward to information from that field.
Thanks so much for sharing this piece......truly a great flight Tim!!!

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 4th October 2007, 07:52 PM

Jim I just do not know.

Having it in my hand and the wood, there is just something African to me. I have come down to earth a little and have abandoned the Razor Women weapon but not the general West African area. The constuction only appears similar to the knife I have shown with it. It is quite different in reality. The similarities are after all fairly universal, a stamp on a blade is not rare nor is the bolster on the item. Just to illustrate this I will post pics of a Nigerian knife. It would be fantastic if some of the Asian collectors could show me the error of my ways. It is a nasty little slashing weapon, it is light only just 250g. I just do not know for sure, need help from Asian collectors please. Could be Chinese?

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2007, 05:44 AM

Me too Tim

!
I wish I had the Marti article to look through, or even the Spring book which has some good examples. It really is a tough call sometimes, the blade with these crenallations seems atypical for Asian weapons to me, but the grip aside from the widening center, still recalls the dha. We really do need some help from the dha guys!

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2007, 10:34 AM

Only drawings so one has to assume great variety.

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2007, 12:01 PM

In the absents of Asian collectors opinions. I will just have to bravely soldier on, or is the silence telling?

I see the subtle shape to the handle as African and most of all the the loose and immediate ease of the triangle patterns on the copper also African. Perhaps Asian collectors can argue the same for Asian work. The handle is not as long as one would think.

Look at the wood. Is it Asian?

The Razor weapon may not be too much of a fantasy.

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2007, 03:41 PM

Excellent observations Tim, and very compelling. That wood seen along with the other items you show certainly seems strikingly similar, and as you suggest, quite African. Thank you so much for posting the Marti illustrations!
I could recall the very unusual shapes and presume the one with the barbs along the back triggered my thoughts on the crenallations on yours.

Another thing you mentioned, as well as your very well placed thoughts on the loose geometric pattern on the hilt mounts, is the fact that they are copper. Isnt copperwork in material items key in certain African regions? I think west African if not mistaken.

I doubt if the Asian collectors will read this unless we repost under another heading.

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2007, 03:42 PM

Apparently there is Asian ebony. Indian {Ceylon} and East indian ebony {Malaysia}
I have seen Indian chillum in a black wood. I do not think this is Indian or that wood. I am puzzled on this one. The decoration just seems African. I just see Asian decoration as tight, formal or floral, more schematic? does that make sense?

You could be right Jim. I will start a thread titled Asian Mak

5th October 2007, 10:34 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Spring, African Arms and Armour Uk version. Only drawings so one has to assume great variety.

4th October 2007, 12:51 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, interesting item.......I must admit that my first impression is Asian. Is it possible that it could be a pole arm ( ceremonial or functional) that has been shortened ? When I researched the African short sword I acquired awhile ago ( it seemed likely Dahomney or neighbouring tribes.) I tried to discover common weapon forms of the area, I didn't find any reference to a weapon such as yours. I did read of references to a 'razor' but, from memory, I had the impression that this was a 'simple' blade which folded into a handle. (Sorry no pics) I'll try and find the description with the reference source.

4th October 2007, 04:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Tim, Nothing wrong with 'flights of fantasy'! and with the unusual blade on this I can appreciate your inclination toward the somewhat distinct Dahomean blades found on the swords termed 'hwi'. It seems that one of these ceremonial weapons has similar crenallated blade back, but I cannot recall specifically and the reference is not at hand. It is shown in "Sabres Decores du Dahomey" (Palau Marti, 1967, but unfortunately cannot recall specific publication it appeared in, check bibliography in Spring for exact reference). I recall the references to 'razors' in the book by Edgerton and some time ago was trying to determine more on this unusual weapons description as well. As you note the weapon in that book is listed as about 18", and I was also hoping for an illustration. Burton (Book of the Sword, 1884) discusses these on p.168-69 from his observations in his trip to Dahomey in 1863, noting the warrior king Gezo, his love of varities of unusual weapons, and of course "...a company of Amazons, called razor women from the 'nyek ple nen toh' blade. This was simply a European razor on a large scale, with a steel of 30" rising from a plain handle of black wood, and kept open by a spring". While the term 'nyek ple nen toh' is unclear in its exact meaning and is not defined in his copious footnotes, he does note that the reference to these weapons comes from his "Mission to Dahome" and is included with notes 'passim' along with other details. His comparison to a European razor of course held open by a spring with its huge size of 30" sounds questionable. His note sounds 'recollected' from notes some 19 years before, and I did not find evidence of such a collapsible weapon, but would look forward to hearing from anyone who knows of such a weapon in Africa. Since Gezo had such a fascination for unusual weapons and it sounds as if he was out to impress, it seems possible he may have created a number of such pieces in a ceremonial sense, but not necessarily for regular issue. I am inclined to agree with Katana in his Asian assessment on this piece, as you have also surmised. The long handle reminds me of the dha form, which I defer more on to the Dha Guys! and clearly the incised marking at the blade center corresponds well to the other example knife you have shown. I like the way you also present examples to show African similarities. Burton also notes the similarities in some weapons from India and Africa, suggesting that they may derive loosely from the same source weapons from Egypt, which of course is entirely plausible in a number of cases and in degree. I would like to hear more on the Asian potential on this interesting weapon, and look forward to information from that field. Thanks so much for sharing this piece......truly a great flight Tim!!! All the best, Jim

4th October 2007, 07:52 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Jim I just do not know. Having it in my hand and the wood, there is just something African to me. I have come down to earth a little and have abandoned the Razor Women weapon but not the general West African area. The constuction only appears similar to the knife I have shown with it. It is quite different in reality. The similarities are after all fairly universal, a stamp on a blade is not rare nor is the bolster on the item. Just to illustrate this I will post pics of a Nigerian knife. It would be fantastic if some of the Asian collectors could show me the error of my ways. It is a nasty little slashing weapon, it is light only just 250g. I just do not know for sure, need help from Asian collectors please. Could be Chinese?

5th October 2007, 05:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Me too Tim ! I wish I had the Marti article to look through, or even the Spring book which has some good examples. It really is a tough call sometimes, the blade with these crenallations seems atypical for Asian weapons to me, but the grip aside from the widening center, still recalls the dha. We really do need some help from the dha guys!

5th October 2007, 12:01 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	In the absents of Asian collectors opinions. I will just have to bravely soldier on, or is the silence telling? I see the subtle shape to the handle as African and most of all the the loose and immediate ease of the triangle patterns on the copper also African. Perhaps Asian collectors can argue the same for Asian work. The handle is not as long as one would think. Look at the wood. Is it Asian? The Razor weapon may not be too much of a fantasy.

5th October 2007, 03:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent observations Tim, and very compelling. That wood seen along with the other items you show certainly seems strikingly similar, and as you suggest, quite African. Thank you so much for posting the Marti illustrations! I could recall the very unusual shapes and presume the one with the barbs along the back triggered my thoughts on the crenallations on yours. Another thing you mentioned, as well as your very well placed thoughts on the loose geometric pattern on the hilt mounts, is the fact that they are copper. Isnt copperwork in material items key in certain African regions? I think west African if not mistaken. I doubt if the Asian collectors will read this unless we repost under another heading.

5th October 2007, 03:42 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Apparently there is Asian ebony. Indian {Ceylon} and East indian ebony {Malaysia} I have seen Indian chillum in a black wood. I do not think this is Indian or that wood. I am puzzled on this one. The decoration just seems African. I just see Asian decoration as tight, formal or floral, more schematic? does that make sense? You could be right Jim. I will start a thread titled Asian Mak