Help Identify - Chinese execution sword?

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM

You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!!

Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap.
All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:18 PM

In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present?
If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others.
Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work.

Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

DaveA · 6th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600).
The device is identical on both sides of the blade.

Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm?

Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword".

If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet.

Ideas?

- Dave

Klas Larsson · 8th October 2007, 11:40 PM

The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords.

The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:31 AM

I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following.
This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold).
The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control.
Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck.
Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory.
Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity.
I can't identify the one on the right, right now.
But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune.
Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic.

Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 02:57 AM

After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen.
I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic.
One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent.
Yuanzhumin

yuanzhumin · 9th October 2007, 03:02 AM

Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ".
Yunazhumin

6th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#3
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	larger picture of brass device Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600). The device is identical on both sides of the blade. Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm? Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword". If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet. Ideas? - Dave Last edited by DaveA; 6th October 2007 at 11:07 PM. Reason: add detail

9th October 2007, 02:31 AM	#5
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Typical chinese symbols I'm not at home to check on my books, but I'm sure of the following. This brass device is in the shape of a plum blossom that is the symbol for courage and hope (the plum flower is blossoming in winter, despite the cold). The plum blossom is also a more recent symbol for the Republic of China, because of the courage and hope it means but also because of the parallel done between the five leaves of the flower and the five branches of the Republican government. Following the wishes of Sun Yat-sen, the chinese republic founder and father of the chinese nation (considered as such in Taiwan AND in China), there are 5 powers -"Yuan" : legislative, executive, judiciary, examination and control. Klas has already identified the bat, symbol of luck. Just on top of it, I see the deer, meaning longevity and prosperity, but when used for a soldier or an aministrative officer, it means glory. Then we have the peach, classic symbol of longevity. I can't identify the one on the right, right now. But the last one, just before the bat or on the right of it, is the symbol for the gold ingot. In other word, money and fortune. Typical chinese symbols. At least, we are sure this is a chinese sword, with some ritual or formal use, because of the symbols on it. May be, dating from the first years of the Republic of China, at the time of the warlords. May be before, if the plum blossom symbol has no link with the Republic. Yuanzhumin

3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!! Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap. All the best, Jim

6th October 2007, 10:18 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present? If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others. Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work. Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

8th October 2007, 11:40 PM	#4
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords. The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

9th October 2007, 02:57 AM	#6
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	After sending the previous post, I was having a last look when I saw the other pictures of the swords , the first ones, on top of the thread, where the brass device is better seen. I think the last symbol is a bird, and I would go for the golden pheasant, representing literary refinement. The golden pheasant is also corresponding to a grade in the chinese Qing army, before the Republic. One more thing I was thinking : If the brass device is from the Chinese Republic time, it could have been added on a older sword, dating from the 19th cent. Yuanzhumin

9th October 2007, 03:02 AM	#7
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Sorry, it's me once more, just to correct a little mistake. I wrote in the previous post "Qing army", but it should be read as " Qing administration ". Yunazhumin